Searching for the perfect tandem/solo, river/lake hybrid

[atcq]

Before I get into it, yes I know this boat doesn't really exist and I'd be better off with a couple of boats each geared towards a different use. Unfortunately I don't have the money or space for a big fleet so I'd rather a jack of all trades, master of none that is a little less likely to be redundant in a year or two.

What I'd like this boat to do: handle a moderate load for long weekend river/lake trips (either solo or tandem), have enough rocker to handle up to class III but still have enough hull speed to avoid excessive frustration on the flats, and be a decent platform to introduce the girlfriend to OC1 in.

What I'm willing to sacrifice: a) beam, I want this to be a half decent solo river runner for the girlfriend and solo tripper for myself; b) some speed and ability to track, I'm not looking to put in 10+ hour days on the lake in this thing and I'm a fairly experienced canoeist, I'd rather it be nimble enough for river running.

My initial thoughts are something between 15.5-17' long and around 33" wide. For boats: the two designs I've come up with that seem to fit the bill are the Millbrook AC/DC and Evergreen Starburst. For outfitting: adjustable/removable saddles and adjustable thigh strap anchors (like the ones from NorthWater).

I'd appreciate any feedback and suggestions: boat designs, outfitting, etc. etc. The more detailed the better, I like getting into the technical stuff haha.

Thanks in advance.

[yarnellboat]

For me, 17' would push it way out of the "jack of all trades" category where solo river running is on the list.

Boats like the Starburst, Canyon, Appalachian, Freedom seem to fit the the bill, but personally I'd look at smaller versions, like the Pocket Canyon or an Old Town Cascade, or maybe a Prospector-type design in the 14-15' range.

P.

[DougB]

Sounds like you're looking for a 16' prospector or the Pocket Canyon

The Starburst is a lotta boat. I'm on my second and wouldn't want to solo it.
The Millbrook AC/DC and ME look pretty sweet and probably the way to go if you're good with glass.

[hazardharry]

i just set up such a boat. old town appalachian16rx. i plan on paddling classIII to poling with some big lakes to cover too.

[Sir Adam]

Millbrook AC DC rocks.

I'd buy a new one, but I'm able to use the 30+ year old one I learned to paddle in:)

I've used in in slalom races (not the greatest, but works), downriver (class II / III), and a little tripping.

If you are more inclined to flat water than whitewater, and have the $ to spend, check out the Savage River Deep Creek as well...

[atcq]

Thanks for all the responses so far.

The Appalachian definitely caught my interest, I'd love to hear your thoughts after you've put it through the works Harry.

The Pocket Canyon was something I looked into as well but I'm worried it'd be borderline unusable on lakes.

I'm really interested in the AC/DC if I end up going new. I love my Reaktor and the swede/fish-form hybrid really intrigues me. I also like the lack of beam relative to some of the other models in the same class. Adam, would you be able to shed some more light on the boat and your experience with it? I'm assuming its paddled fish-form for slalom and river running and swede-form for downriver and flatwater.

[Sir Adam]

Ours is an ancient model (80's) from when John (Berry) made them in Riparius (the next town over, so to speak).

I has kneeling thwarts glassed in, and we only paddle it in one direction. Though it has a different profile bow and stern, it is not much of a difference on ours. I'm not sure ours is the current model to be honest... but I do know a number of our vintage boat were made (it is not a prototype).

I've also paddled an ME (one of John Berry's old race boats at that!), which I enjoy very much. That said, for WW and slalom the ME is great, but with a load I'd far rather trip in the AC DC.

The AC DC is:
Wider
More stable
Tracks better
has more load capacity


I feel the AC DC is more of a flat water / tripper, while the ME is more whitewater oriented. Others may have different opinions.

Please note that I've chosen the route of multiple boats... so while I do use the AC DC (esp. on moving water with the kids) for longer flat water trips I use an old Sawyer Champ II... and for WW have "a number" of C1's to pick from....

[valhallalongboats]

Another boat to consider:

We-No-Nah Rouge.

By far faster than any other boat listed, still handles nicely in whitewater. Very dry due to DEEP ends, agile enough (for a 16 footer). Will handle quite a lot of gear (especially solo) Probably won't turn as fast as an AC/DC, but its Royalex so it will take a lot more abuse.

-Rob

[NickParker]

...jack of all trades... handle a moderate load for long weekend river/lake trips (either solo or tandem), have enough rocker to handle up to class III but still have enough hull speed to avoid excessive frustration on the flats, and be a decent platform to introduce the girlfriend to OC1 in....My initial thoughts are something between 15.5-17' long...

I think the compromise sweet spot that will do all of that well enough is in the 14.5' - 15' range.

Shorter than that you'll be overloading it on your weekend tandem trips (by overloading I mean it will handle like a log). Longer than that you'll have extra length/weight you don't really want or need when you are solo.

My jack of all trades boat is an OT Cascade. It's very similar in design to the Appalachian, but it's shorter at 14.5'. It handles class II/III just fine, solo or tandem. I've never been frustrated by the hull speed. It is a stable boat, very suitable for taking along beginners. It is a dry boat. I've done tandem multi-day trips in it, which it handles just fine as long as we pack like lightweight backpackers (my preferred way to pack anyway). If you want to carry camp chairs, dutch ovens, offspring, and such on your multi-day trips, then look for a hull 16' or longer.

... For outfitting: adjustable/removable saddles and adjustable thigh strap anchors (like the ones from NorthWater). I'd appreciate any feedback and suggestions: boat designs, outfitting, etc. etc....

I don't think you will go wrong with the adjustable/removable saddles (except for expense).

I almost went that way with my Cascade, but decided against it. My reasoning was that I would not use it as a hardcore whitewater boat, especially when tandem. It was to be a jack of all trades boat. I figured that my tandem use for it would end up being easy whitewater and lake, weekend tripping, and the like -- so I left in the standard seats. Seats have their disadvantages, but they do have the advantage of allowing multiple body positions when tripping. When your knees get sore you can sit on your butt for a while, and shift your body around.

For solo use I built a nice kneeling thwart, with adjustable hip blocks and thigh strap. It works fine for the water I take this boat on (lake to class III). One nice thing about the kneeling thwart is that it stays in the boat all the time, without getting in the way of bags, coolers, dogs, etc, when the boat is used tandem.

The beam was a little wide in the middle for solo cross strokes, so I pulled it in a few inches. I lost a little bit of initial stability, and lost a tiny bit of rocker. Both of those losses were small, and were well offset by the gain of easier reach on solo cross strokes.

I put short bags in the front and back. I never bothered to put a middle bag in this boat, for the same reason as above -- I didn't intend for it to be a hardcore whitewater boat, certainly not when paddled tandem. Sometimes for solo trips I will take out the seats and put in long bags. That conversion takes about 45 minutes, either direction.

All in all I've been very happy with my outfitting decisions, the outfitting matches how I ended up using the boat. I'm also very happy with the hull, for how it is used (jack of all trades).

I may buy/sell other boats, but the Cascade I will always keep. Here's a link to some photos. There is not a photo that shows it with seats, center kneeling thwart, and short bags, which is the way it stays rigged now (since I bought a shorter whitewater specific solo boat).

https://plus.google.com/photos/10920228 ... 0849768577

[Paddle Power]

NickParker,

That Old Town Cascade is outfitted very nicely!

[Pierre LaPaddelle]

Clipper Merganser!

[yarnellboat]

Hellman Scout?

http://hellmancanoes.com/canoes/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

P.

p.s. The OT Cascade is a great answer to this FAQ, too bad they're so hard to find now. If I had to own only one canoe, that might be it. Fortunately, that's not the case! But unfortunately, I have no need/room for someting like an OT Cascade.

[NickParker]

....The OT Cascade is a great answer to this FAQ, too bad they're so hard to find now....

The Esquif Pocket Canyon looks to have very similar specs to the Cascade. I have no first hand experience with it.

To the original poster, I think your decision point should be the shortest hull that will handle your expected tandem tripping load.

You will appreciate the shortest/lightest hull when solo. However if you go too short you will hate how the boat handles when fully loaded for tandem tripping.

I can take about 400lbs in my 14'6" hull without the handling getting too bad. That's two 180lb souls with 20lbs of gear each -- i.e. a weekend trip. Take away 40-50lbs and the handling gets much better. I wouldn't want to go too far above the 400lbs. I've done some week long tandem trips, for those I rented 16 foot boats due to the extra weight of a weeks worth of food & stove fuel for two people.

If you are both light, and you pack light, you might be OK in a 14' hull for weekend trips(?).

Nick

[atcq]

Thanks for all the great input everyone. Have to admit I'd never even heard of the Scout or Merganser but they look like excellent designs. And I'll echo PP's thoughts, that is a lovely outfitting job Nick.

Any ideas on how the ME would compare to the Cascade and Pocket Canyon? Perhaps the ME's rocker and lack of beam would take it out of the 'all arounder' category for some, but the specs interest me and I'm encouraged by what I've read about its performance for a light tandem team.

[hazardharry]

we ran some big water on the kennebec river @4800cfs loaded for the weekend of camping and swamped it in the first wave train. we eddied out and let the pump empty the canoe. to run WWwith 2 cockpits and a load i should be running 4 pumps! we used the overturned hull in camp as a kitchen table.the next day i poled it the rest of the way down the keneebec to the take out.