Slalom boat basics?

[ezwater]

Is everyone else out paddling, or are my contributions too incoherent or obscure to draw responses?

[KNeal]

I wanna see video of you in your Zealot demonstrating how incorrect your forward stroke is.

[JimW]

Not out paddling, been out glue sniffing, er, re-outfitting my Ocoee.....

I've been using the C1 videos on the UK slalom site, have to admit I didn't bother with C2, assuming that having paddles on both sides does away with a lot of the technical difficulty of C1....????
That crew do seem pretty smooth, more like the C1 forward paddling in the 'respect the project' video.

The over-riding principle here seems to be that everyone develops a slightly different technique that works for them. Possibly also keeping the boat moving in the right direction is more important than doing it smoothly, but if you can do both you will be faster...

If you read all the technical articles they start to get contradictory about rotation or not, drop the on side shoulder or not, push with the top hand or not. I even saw advice to keep the head up alongside a video or photo sequence showing a paddler with head clearly down.....

Does your pin the bow technique work at low power/speed or only at higher speeds?
I've read quite a few of your descriptions of it but I've never managed to replicate it in my Ocoee, the only time I felt it was when horsing the slalom boat last week!
I need to find time to test some of these ideas now - I have a feeling that if I can keep the boat on the plane between strokes (not likely since I'm too heavy for it) it will reduce the pitching - the hydrodynamic lift will reduce proportionately to the speed, so the faster you go the more lift you have to counter your trimming moment.

Not sure when I'll find time to practice this week - stormy weather forecast for a couple of days at any rate. I'll let you all know how I get on.

[ezwater]

It works at high speeds for me, but those might not be high speeds for others. That's why some still tack a quick little J on the end of the stroke, without dragging the blade.

Endicott's description of the evolution of Hearn's and Lugbill's strokes notes that sometimes the J just disappeared. But Hearn cites the J in his own description.

I can only tell you that nothing I ever did, ever won races, but the cab forward stroke and elimination of the routine J has made my everyday paddling life much easier.

[ezwater]

Kneal, I am thinking of doing a video or two, but my 71 year old left knee says it cannot be in the Zealot. Maybe the Wide Ride or my Millbrook Edsel.

[KNeal]

That's alright, ez. Hop in either of those boats and give us a good show.

[John Coraor]

JimW:

If you have good stroke technique and are young and fit enough to maintain both power and a reasonably high stroke rate, a slalom boat will settle back and start to plane on its stern (often seen only in relatively flat sections of water). This effect is particularly noticeable with newer 3.5 meter slalom boats and seems to have the added effect of fully engaging the stern in the water, which appears to increase its tracking ability (i.e. reduces the need for correction strokes). (NOTE: This is NOT caused by leaning back to shift weight to the stern, but by the hydraulic effect of paddling at sufficient speed to cause the stern to settle into the water as the boat tries to climb its own bow-wave.)

DISCLAIMER: I am too old, slow, and fat to come any where close to initiating this effect, but am always amazed to see it on those infrequent occasions when my oldest son climbs into a C-1 and goes blazing down a course.

John

[ezwater]

Huh! And here I thought Estanguet was leaning back to control his descent, like a space shuttle pilot!

Maybe there will be some redesign. Fishform revolution hasn't hit decked slalom yet. Why have such bow pointiness if it's just going to wave in the air?

I want to race a sturgeon, for the very first time!


Kneal...... Is messing about in boats the same as advanced canoodling?

[KNeal]

Kneal...... Is messing about in boats the same as advanced canoodling?

Awww, fer criminey sake! I was sipping coffee when I read that!

Canoodling

[Bob P]

John,

The latest boats' sterns are very low volume: very easy to keep the stern down and the bow up. Classic pivots have turned into massive stern-sinks in the upstreams. They use the super-strong eddy current to push the boat through the gate (which only really works on an artificial course...). Do that in a weak eddy and the boat would just die in place.

EZWater,

There's still an advantage to keep the bow narrow where the main stroke is. Fish-form might be better hydrodynamically, but if you have to modify the stroke (by exaggerating a C or J) to keep the boat in a straight line, you lose any advantage.

[ezwater]

Thanks, Bob P. That note about artificial courses.... Whenever I see a race on a natural course, it makes somewhat more sense. Even old Augsburg looks more "natural" than the latest Olympic wonders.

[Bob P]

The "classic" upstream technique (using a pivot) would be to come in with as much speed as possible, roughly perpendicular to the gate line. As the bow crosses behind the gate, a gradual change is made from carving to a mild pivot, depending on the strength of the eddy. Once the body is through the gate, you will either continue the pivot (for a tight turn) or go classic lean (to start a ferry).

Just as an aside... I miss "S" turns. They have mostly disappeared because the venues have become so narrow. Done by an on-side C1, it's a thing of beauty (to watch, or do). I almost got a 50 in one race because everything happened so smoothly and organically that they weren't sure that I went through the gate.

[edg]

I also am/was a big fan of D. Hearn's "Canoe and Kayak Slalom Technique Stroke Drills". I used to watch it semi obsessively. Being able to consistently control the edges of the boat on flat water, especially at the limits of balance, has a huge carry over to whitewater. And if you can't do it on the flat, you definitely won't pull it off in turbulent water under pressure.

Apologies for thread drift, but any word on how Bob P.'s CSX is coming along? I'm intrigued by the design, since it seems to be a much cleaner/refined version of what I've hacked up in the garage....edg

[Bob P]

The CSX project is driving me a little crazy... The only thing left to do is to lay up the hull (again), which I'm trying to do by the infusion method. My first attempt worked about half-way, resulting in $500 in wasted carbon fiber and epoxy.

I'm prepping for a second attempt now, using a different infusion matrix and peel-ply. If this attempt doesn't fly, I'll just do a hand layup. The difference will probably be just a couple of pounds, but I'd really like the all-up paddling weight under 8 kg that should be possible with infusion.

[mahyongg]

Interesting how the british videos emphasize back pulling in the pull stroke initiation phase and twist/arms only later in the pull phase, which is kind of contrary to what I'd suggest for a good catch and less rocking:

- slice blade in extended forward
- initiate catch by applying power from body rotation - karate chop to paddle handle with upper arm, lower arm used as lever, vertical or even hyper-vertical, all motion pulling forward, no "downward pressure" or anything like that (wasteful)
- follow through with your back rocking motion picking up the move from the rotation, although by now you're really already nearly done with the stroke.. maybe add a last quick hip thrust at the end of the power phase before pulling out

Now if you want to, there's a nice test for the efficiency of rocking (upper body righting muscles) vs. twisting (body rotation). Just paddle a few lanes using only one of each techniques and see which one applies power faster to create a good catch.. simple, of course, it's not the one shifting a lot of your own body weight up and down, but the one just twisting that around an axis.. essentially creating way less accelerated body mass and much more accelerated boat..

Would love to hear about your results. Oh, and just carve that thing, don't steer or J-stroke and if you must, pitch it like it's hot ;D