Condor vs Rebel

[jdryden78]

So what's the current opinion? My chances of demoing either boat are pretty much zero being in NW Arkansas. Currently paddling a fly and ledge superlite.

[Cheeks]

This will be tough because there aren't many people who have paddled both. I've only sat in a Rebel for 10 minutes so I can't speak much to it. The Rebel is faster than the Condor, the Condor is more maneuverable, much drier, and more stable/predictable. The Condor paddles kind of like an Ocoee, but better.

If you still haven't decided by next May, you can try my boats when I'm driving through Arkansas. And I'll check with Vargas to see if he has his long boat and is coming through Arkansas on his way back from the Canyon

[pier]

I paddled only rebel prototype, very fast boat, but don't turn easy and fast, my friend the german Jan say that the production rebel have more rocker so it turn faster.

I only have paddled outrage and rebel prototype like long boat, I don't know anything about Condor, but in my opinion these boats are too heavy than a royalex boat, it is not possible to build boats with a weight of 30 kg, too heavy to carry and handle. I have handle an old version of edge, incredible heavy and I'm not an light man, but I think that the history of canoe production will teach, if Dagger Mad river and Mohwak was building the boats with a range of weight is because they known that that was the right weight. If someone handle an old prelude can fell how the prelude in pe is lighter than a l'edge old production for an example..

[FullGnarlzOC]

"two completely different boats" seems to be the consensus among those that have paddled both.

regarding weight, the rebel is a quite a bit lighter, but other than that - hard to make a comparison... both are HDPE and both are over 11ft

[squeakyknee]

So let’s be completely honest about these boats.. they weigh nearly the exact same, within 2 lbs in most cases sand extra out fitting beyond stock.
I have had a bone stock production Rebel and Condor here in the shop and weighed them both with bare bones outfitting for both (only lacing, thwarts, foam saddle, and knee pads).
They are not the same boat however it is possible to compare the two since they are being used on the same rivers for the same purpose.
First the Rebel:
I dig some SB boats as they went full in with custom colors, the designs are good, and the owners are good folks to work with. The Rebel to me was a good attempt at a longe PE Ww canoe and is fun to paddle however it does have it’s drawbacks. First off it is not an entry level boat. I know they are being sold to lots of people for whom it’s their first ww cane or maybe second. It is pretty fast but takes more than basic skill to be fast, dry, and on your line. It is a wet boat if you are not driving it with purpose and to snap an eddy you nearly have to dip a gunnel. Again, it’s fun but who wants to work harder for fun??
And then there is the Condor:
Blackfly boats turned me off for the first year or so they were out. I didn’t care for the look and weight coming from royalex boats and a Zephyr. It took me a few years but I finally met Jeremy and picked his brain like I tend to do with folks who make their own stuff. I was impressed and got a much better understanding of PE canoe design and function.
Fast forward to late Summer this year and I picked up a new Condor.
Mind you I have owned a bunch of Blackflys and a SB Covert 9.3 at this point. I was immediatly impressed with the final version as I had the privelage of paddling a few of the prototypes over the last two years. The Condor is a well thought out and tested design with the sexyiest look yet for the Blackflys since the alum. Molded Option dropped.
The Condor is stable but not overly stable(the ol barge feeling) the bow has just the right amount of rocker and rise to get you up and over but not so much as to hit the wall when puncking big holes and waves and still manages to divert most of the splash to the sides of the hull. It’s pretty darn easy to roll even with the rocker and very dry with a quick roll.
Speed wise it’s right there with the Rebel on straight line and acceleration but beats the Rebel due to it’s dryness.
All of this is of course subjective to the paddler but I feel with almost 20 years in ww canoes of all types it has some validity.

[jdryden78]

This will be tough because there aren't many people who have paddled both. I've only sat in a Rebel for 10 minutes so I can't speak much to it. The Rebel is faster than the Condor, the Condor is more maneuverable, much drier, and more stable/predictable. The Condor paddles kind of like an Ocoee, but better.

If you still haven't decided by next May, you can try my boats when I'm driving through Arkansas. And I'll check with Vargas to see if he has his long boat and is coming through Arkansas on his way back from the Canyon

That would be great...just hope this time it's not the weekend my other daughter is graduating high school. I was anxiously awaiting for the day a couple years ago, but nailed graduation perfect so missed out.

[FullGnarlzOC]

I'll bite.. Feedback from Universities that have SB fleets, with regards to the Rebel has been great. New students doing well with them.

"Speed wise it’s right there with the Rebel on straight line and acceleration but beats the Rebel due to it’s dryness."

... I'm thinking there will be a three-peat this year @ ALF OUT Race, w/ Rebel taking first and second again, for the 3rd year in a row. Sure Phil and Jerrod are great paddlers, but there are great paddlers on team BF as well. But that Rebel has some serious speed... take a look at the waterline

Rebel is lighter. Not just on what the manufacturers have weighted out and published, but noticeably upon picking them up. And it makes sense, for two main reasons. 1) SB does their own molding... These guys have been molding PE boats for over 10 years now. They have some of the best variable plastic control in the industry. 2) Rebel is designed to handle less displacement than the Condor... It's narrower. Less plastic. Now does off water weight REALLY matter? Not that much in my opinion.

Two different boats. After watching the BF boys at Beaver crush it in their Condors all weekend on Class IV-V, I'd rather compare the 9.3 to the Condor personally. Comparable speed and maneuverability. Whereas a Rebel, I really wouldnt want to bring one on those kind of steeps. Not designed for it, designed to be a long boat - Class 3/4 in my opinion.

[RodeoClown]

I might as well jump in here with my totally biased thoughts.
I'll start with my thoughts on the Condor. I wrote up a long article about the design process that went into the Condor (here: http://www.blackflycanoes.com/from-the-shop-the-condor/) but in short my design goal for the Condor was to make a boat that was "Easy to paddle fast." Not necessarily the fastest or the easiest, but the one that gives a good balance of the two. My belief is the the fastest boat is the one you can paddle the fastest, and flat out speed isn't everything. Fun and forgiving...and also fast. I'm usually a huge critic of my own work, but to be perfectly honest, this one....this one I nailed. It's fast, it carries speed like nothing I've paddled, it's responsive, maneuverable, forgiving, dry... I wanted it to be the boat I'd be paddling 80% of the time, but it's exceeding that. So far the only time I've paddled something else is when someone wants to try mine out. It's not just an upper end boat. I've been loving it on everything from moving flatwater floats with my son to Class V. I think if I had to sum up the advantage of the Condor over the Rebel in one word it would be "versatility."

*disclamer* I haven't personally paddled a Rebel. I wanted the Condor to be my own baby, to measure it only against my expectations of what it should be, so I purposely avoided paddling the Rebel during the design phase, and haven't gotten a chance to try one since then. So my impressions of it are based off of watching others paddle it, and the feedback I've gotten from people I trust who have paddled both. The Rebel IS marginally faster. Being near the front of the pack at the ALF race in a prototype Condor, and watching two prototype Condors in front of me and two Rebels in front of them, the thing I noticed was the Rebels weren't gaining nearly as much as I would have expected for as much as I'd heard how the boat was faster. I'll be interested to see how the production boat does at the race this year.

As far as weight goes, I realized some years ago, after starting to have problems because I gave in to chasing a lighter boat that I'd be better off making the boat the thickness it should be and letting the boat weigh what it should based on that. I want them to be durable. You can arm wave about targeting plastic to different areas and tuning molds and that's stuff that everyone does, but at the end of the day, there isn't that much real estate you can pull plastic out of without causing one problem or another (it's usually warping). No, we didn't mold these in house. We molded them at Liquidlogic. They know a thing or two about making whitewater boats, and I was really impressed with the knowledge and attention to detail that went in to setting up this mold. I've heard from several people that they felt that the boats were close in weight (and we have one account on here of someone who actually weighed both and confirmed it). But I haven't personally weighed both- Tom, if you want, I can bring a scale to Tohickon this weekend?

[FullGnarlzOC]

A scale sounds fun... we can take bets! Would be nice to weigh a few different boats of each model(Rebel/Condor), see the difference! I would also like to get solid seat time in a Condor, gotta see what all this hype is about! I'm happy that you are stoked about the end result on this one... Must be nice for ya. Great that paddlers have another good canoe design to paddle as well!

I have a Rebel you can paddle - You'd see pretty quickly why it's hard to compare these two boats. Thats why I like the Condor v Covert comparison - Versatility, Maneuvability, Speed.

Look forward to seein' ya.

[Cheeks]

That would be great...just hope this time it's not the weekend my other daughter is graduating high school. I was anxiously awaiting for the day a couple years ago, but nailed graduation perfect so missed out.

For sure! I reached out to Alex to see what boats he has, but he may have already put on the Canyon, and either way, it won't be for a few weeks. And I'll be swinging through Arkansas in May.

As to comparing the Covert and the Condor, I've paddled a Covert a fair bit and I don't think that's an apt comparison at all. Yeah, the Condor is maneuverable, but it's still an 11 foot boat. Similarly, the Covert is fast, but it's still only 9 feet. I think the Rebel and Condor set out to do the same thing, provide that older school feel with the benefits of modern design and PE hulls. They're both good boats. I'd argue that the Condor is a better boat for a wider range of paddlers, but there are going to be some paddlers that love the Rebel, so I certainly wouldn't sell it short.

[FullGnarlzOC]

While we're getting the scale out, something interesting would be to measure the waterline of the Rebel, 9.3, and Condor.. I bet the waterline on the Condor is much closer to the 9.3 than the Rebel.

We keep hearing versatility w/ regards to the Condor... which is why I'd rather compare to Covert series - Silverbirch's versatile flagship boat. The Rebel... which in the hands of an experienced paddler will be more of a specialist boat in my opinion vs a do it all. If someone says they want a do-it-all boat.. I would recommend the Covert.

Agent - Option/Ion
Covert 9.3 - Octane 85/Condor
Covert 10.5 - Octane/Condor
Rebel - ?
Firefly 14 - ?

^^ is more or less the comparisons I am comfortable making - based on speed, maneuverability, and stability profile.

Like I said, glad you guys have the new design! Starting to sound like it's Blackflys...."If you could only take one canoe what would you take" canoe. For Silverbirch, that boat is the Covert, not the Rebel

[heavy d]

thanks for the info guys - really appreciate all of your experience here.
d

[jdryden78]

Love to see all the info and opinions being shared. Gotta say though, not making my planning any easier...maybe it will eventually be a one of each type situations...