Well over a decade ago, I started getting into ww kayaking, but quikly lost interest when I discovered marathon canoe racing. I still love marathon and spend a great deal of time in flatwater training and racing, but I'm now back to doing a little dabbling in whitewater again. My only ww boat is a Cascade that is in reasonably good shape. It has served me well but I'm starting to feel the urge to move up to a higher level boat.
A couple important facts about myself. I am a competent but inexperienced (ww) paddler. I have good balance, strenght, endurance and boat handling skills. I don't have any interest in running Class V drops (I'm still timid and scared in some Class III rapids). I guess I'm more interested in improving my skills in more mild rapids and learning a few of the new play moves. Finally, I'm a big guy -- 220 pounds and 6'1".
I have never paddled any C-1 other than my Cascade. What I'd really like and need is for you folks to tell me to shut-up, stop dreaming and be happy with the Cascade because it's a good fit. However, if anybody out there would like to describe what I might find if I tried a newer, shorter boat, that would be O.K. to.
Kevin
(Madison, WI)
Contemplating moving up from a Cascade
Moderators: kenneth, sbroam, TheKrikkitWars, Mike W., Sir Adam, KNeal, PAC, adamin
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kevin.leroy
- c
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- Joined: Thu May 29, 2003 11:58 am
- Location: Madison, Wisconsin
I'm 6'2" and ~215, learned how to C1 in a cascade, and now paddle an H3:255
it's not a playboat, but it's an easier transition than going from a cascade to a spud boat (I already made that mistake, killed my paddling confidence, doh!)
pros:
better secondary stability
easier to manuever (doesn't have to be manhandled like the cascade)
cons:
worse primary stability, which feels wierd initially
slower
doesn't track as well
need to convert it from K1
edit: whatever you do, don't get rid of that cascade! if you ever take a break from ww paddling and then want to get back into it it's an excellent trainer boat
it's not a playboat, but it's an easier transition than going from a cascade to a spud boat (I already made that mistake, killed my paddling confidence, doh!)
pros:
better secondary stability
easier to manuever (doesn't have to be manhandled like the cascade)
cons:
worse primary stability, which feels wierd initially
slower
doesn't track as well
need to convert it from K1
edit: whatever you do, don't get rid of that cascade! if you ever take a break from ww paddling and then want to get back into it it's an excellent trainer boat
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Sir Adam
- CBoats.net Staff
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- Location: Adirondacks, NY State, USA
- Contact:
Slalom boat...
From your description I'd look for a used high-volume slalom boat. It will reward you for proper technique, be stable, and you can have A LOT of fun in a class III rapid with one, catching eddy's, attaining, etc.... For you're weight I'd guess a full cut Batmax, Cudamax, Supermax, or Ultramax would be best, unless you can find a Maverick + (SBroam has one...I haven't heard of many others, but may have...). Another option, if you can find one, is a full cut Viper. It will be easily stern-squirtable, which you may or may not feel is a plus. A Descender may also be a good choice for a big older stable boat (and I believe one is for sale up in Canada right now). I'd say go long and fast, but not WildWater boat fast as they really aren't stable (eh KNeal?:) ).
Keep the C!
Adam
Adam
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billcanoes
- CBoats Addict
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- Location: Charlotte, NC
C1 options
Don't forget the BigBoys and Sith, they are c1 designed boats so are more stable than a conversion. I'm 190 and the Sith is probably cut too big for my weight, BUT 250 had about 2-3" of the stern under water, so I would guess you would be near the max. weight range. I haven't gotten the bigboy yet, but you should be in the middle of the weight range for it.
Bill Reap
Bill Reap
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Bruce Farrenkopf
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the great gonzo
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yarnellboat
- C Maven
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Seems like its not uncommon to be a 200lbs+ class III paddler...
Here's a thread on some boats:
http://cboats.net/cforum/viewtopic.php? ... lers+score
P.
Here's a thread on some boats:
http://cboats.net/cforum/viewtopic.php? ... lers+score
P.
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Craig Smerda
- L'Edge Designer
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billcanoes
- CBoats Addict
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- Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2004 5:59 pm
- Location: Charlotte, NC
C1 for larger boater
Kevin,
The Atom is definately worth a try- I borrowed Kneals and enjoyed it, and the glass version is nicer than the plastic version. I've never tried the fink, but I'd like to give it a whirl.
I'd love to have some folks try the Sith out- I enjoyed it more than the Atom, but the same boat doesn't work for everyone.
I'm planning on being in DC this weekend- Lower Yough 8/13 and at the Gauley fest whenever that is. Any chance you can make it to any of these, or does anyone else want to demo a boat? Mike W, we'll get you in a demo hopefully soon. I don't have the big boys yet but they are en route, hopefully they will be here by the end of the month.
I will keep everyone informed about the fatboys when they come out
hopefully this is a bigboy pic
[img]https://ssl.perfora.net/www.liquidmojo. ... shopscript[/img]
The Atom is definately worth a try- I borrowed Kneals and enjoyed it, and the glass version is nicer than the plastic version. I've never tried the fink, but I'd like to give it a whirl.
I'd love to have some folks try the Sith out- I enjoyed it more than the Atom, but the same boat doesn't work for everyone.
I'm planning on being in DC this weekend- Lower Yough 8/13 and at the Gauley fest whenever that is. Any chance you can make it to any of these, or does anyone else want to demo a boat? Mike W, we'll get you in a demo hopefully soon. I don't have the big boys yet but they are en route, hopefully they will be here by the end of the month.
I will keep everyone informed about the fatboys when they come out
hopefully this is a bigboy pic
[img]https://ssl.perfora.net/www.liquidmojo. ... shopscript[/img]
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John Coraor
- CBoats Addict
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- Location: Long Island, NY
Cascade replacement
Kevin:
Retaining your Cascade may well be an appropriate move. However, if you want to try something new, I would second Adam's recommendations. As a marathon paddler, you're used to a fast hull. Switching to a much shorter C-1 like a playboat conversion is likely to leave you pining for lost hull speed. A slalom C-1 would have good hull speed with plenty of manuverability for having fun on Class III water (e.g. eddy turns, pivots, attainment moves).
Most of the boats Adam recommended are 70cm full width slalom boats (without wings), which means good primary stability, particularly for a heavier paddler. I'm not familiar with the Maverick, but as it was designed after the Batmax, it probably, like the Batmax and most subsequent slalom boats has a narrower hull with wings (in order to meet the 70cm width requirement). This generally results in a faster boat, but with less primary stability. If you are considering a narrower design, I would recommend either the Zealot or the Super Dynamic. Both have more volume in the bow than the Batmax. I used to paddle the Batmax in the mid-80s. Twenty-five years and 50 extra pounds later, I've switched to the Zealot, which tends to bury less in waves and holes.
The disadvantage of going with a slalom boat is that you will miss out on some of the aerial and surfing moves made feasible by shorter playboat designs. Also, slalom boats are universally composite layups and thus are more vulnerable to rock damage (but also a helluva lot lighter!).
John
Retaining your Cascade may well be an appropriate move. However, if you want to try something new, I would second Adam's recommendations. As a marathon paddler, you're used to a fast hull. Switching to a much shorter C-1 like a playboat conversion is likely to leave you pining for lost hull speed. A slalom C-1 would have good hull speed with plenty of manuverability for having fun on Class III water (e.g. eddy turns, pivots, attainment moves).
Most of the boats Adam recommended are 70cm full width slalom boats (without wings), which means good primary stability, particularly for a heavier paddler. I'm not familiar with the Maverick, but as it was designed after the Batmax, it probably, like the Batmax and most subsequent slalom boats has a narrower hull with wings (in order to meet the 70cm width requirement). This generally results in a faster boat, but with less primary stability. If you are considering a narrower design, I would recommend either the Zealot or the Super Dynamic. Both have more volume in the bow than the Batmax. I used to paddle the Batmax in the mid-80s. Twenty-five years and 50 extra pounds later, I've switched to the Zealot, which tends to bury less in waves and holes.
The disadvantage of going with a slalom boat is that you will miss out on some of the aerial and surfing moves made feasible by shorter playboat designs. Also, slalom boats are universally composite layups and thus are more vulnerable to rock damage (but also a helluva lot lighter!).
John