So much for a dry boat-Zephyr problems!!!!

squeakyknee · Post by **squeakyknee** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 9:24 pm

I will update when I know more,
Shawn

Craig Smerda · Post by **Craig Smerda** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 9:37 pm

Did you call Jacques or Esquif and discuss your concerns with them? That would be my FIRST recommendation before posting it all over the net. If there is an issue I'm certain Jacques would address it.

Craig

billcanoes · Post by **billcanoes** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 9:46 pm

David actually had 14 pin holes in his- Mine has 2- I'm working with Esquif on getting the boats replaced- hopefully they will be agreeing.

Esquif did proactively notify me of the problem- so I notified Shawn and David- I think Esquif is providing a valuable service with their innovations in the canoe industry-

Hopefully they will be responsible manufacturer/business too.

Bill Reap
704-604-6687
billcanoes@yahoo.com

squeakyknee · Post by **squeakyknee** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 10:33 pm

First off,I am angry about it.
Second,I'm not spouting off ALL over the net that Esquif sucks or anything.I love their boats and think that they are an asset to our sport.That said,
Yes I am mad,yes I am vocalizing it.Sorry if it offends you.
And yes,Bill did tell me about being contacted about the problem.
Hopefully something will get worked out.

-can't a guy get ticked off anymore?-
Hopefully I can get in the water tomorrow and work it out of my system.

jchasse · Post by **jchasse** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 11:40 pm

I hope every body will understand that Esquif is a responsable company, and we are working hard to make open boaters happy. We never hided to our retailer that we experienced some production problem. Testing a canoe on 2 feet of ice doesn't show any leak. We realised the potential pin hole after the boats were delivered and them we contacted our retailer. We understand your frustation but we'll asked you to trust us. We have tested the Zephyr since october, nobody noticed that problem of course many of our tester took water in class 3-4 or 5, that's probably why they never report the problem. We know also how destructive can be a forum using wrong or incompleted information. Do you really feel that we were not trying to offer you the best our reputation is to be proud and responsable of our product. 15 boats were produced with a potential problem. I hope we can count on you to help us developping...

Jacques Chassé
Esquif canoes

PS I never reply on forum, I believe it's for you guys but I hope it will clarified the situation.

CanoeBoy · Post by **CanoeBoy** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 11:45 pm

Hey, When I busted my Zeph Esquif was super friendly to deal with, one phone call, a simple explanation and a few dig. photos and my new boat was on the truck headed my way.
Just remember that sometimes it costs time and headaches to be on the cutting edge of design. I would much rather deal with a few bad first run boats then to still be paddling an HD-1.
Nick

yarnellboat · Post by **yarnellboat** » Wed Apr 05, 2006 12:10 am

I've been interested in the Zephyr, and an Esquif rep is doing a boat demo in Vancouver this weekend, so I'm very happy that these early-production problems are being shared.

It's not something that I consider company bashing, and I'm pleased to see that Esquif seems to be on top of it.

Kudos to Esquif for their new hull designs and new materials, and for getting some demo boats on the water out here in the canoeing hinterlands of Vancouver! I'll offer the rep that I bring my Vertige X which is outfitted with removable saddles for fully adjustable 3-position outfitting.

P.

ncdavid · Post by **ncdavid** » Wed Apr 05, 2006 12:12 am

Bill's boat has been on 1 whitewater trip. It has 2 tiny holes. Mine has been on 3 trips. It has 13 or 14 holes. How many did it have when it was shipped? I don't know. I'm betting it had far fewer. My fear is that if I strike a rock in an area with several little holes, that I might find one large hole/rip. When the boats arrived, it was clear that there were some little surface imperfections. I didn't worry about it or gripe about it. I love the design. The boat rocked on Wilson Creek and was outstanding on the Nantahala. I'm skeptical (but hopeful) about the material. I'm sure the folks at Esquif have perfected the mold. If the other possibility (that normal paddling will produce microfractures which impair boat integrity) shows itself to be the case, then I'm sure that Esquif will make things right. Again, I love the design and appreciate Esquif's willingness to push the sport forward by riding the edge of design and materials. And let me clarify what I mean by "holes"----I put my boat on sawhorses and filled it halfway to the gunwales. There was no immediate leak. I checked back in half an hour. There were many small drops of water on the hull. I watched for several minutes. Three or four of the drops fell. Nothing drastic about that. It wouldn't bother me to continue to paddle it as is. If it doesn't develop further leaks, that is. I just worry that it will develop more. We'll see.

David Sink

ncdavid · Post by **ncdavid** » Wed Apr 05, 2006 12:23 am

Craig,
Shawn and I bought our boats from Bill at Liquid Mojo. He informed us of the problem as soon as he knew. He is working with Esquif to resolve the problem. When it is resolved, Shawn has the right to be happy and say nice things about Esquif. Until then, he has the right to be unhappy and question the process that allowed him to spend many dollars on a boat, own it for 5 weeks, have all the factory applied vinyl patches fail, and develop ten leaks. And this is the perfect place to discuss it. I've praised the boat on this forum. It would be irresponsible of me to withhold negative information about the boat, especially since I have been helping Bill sell them.

David Sink

jchasse · Post by **jchasse** » Wed Apr 05, 2006 12:24 am

Just a last one if I can,

The pinhole we were talking about appeared during the process it's not related to the number time you paddle the boat. If your boat was not leaking it's because it's a good one. I honestly wish you to have fun and some time taking more than few drop on your next run...

The leaking problem will not affect the durability of the boat

Jacques

cheajack · Post by **cheajack** » Wed Apr 05, 2006 12:46 am

I have not paddled a Zephyr and never owned an Esquif boat (I find the Taureau interesting). I was at the NOC last weekend and went out the back of the store to the porch where demo open boats are stored and looked at the Zephyr, sat in it and rolled it over to have a good look. I was surprised to see how flexible the Twintex material is relative to ABS. The boat I looked at seemed much softer (more flexible) than boats with which I am more familiar. This is no criticism, but rather a question. How is hull speed affected by flexibility? I was always under the impression that stiffness translated to speed (all other variables remaining constant). Comments?

squeakyknee · Post by **squeakyknee** » Wed Apr 05, 2006 1:14 am

I agree that I probably would have never notice if not been told about it.This is a forum among friends and people with common paddling interests that want to know what people think.
I'm only posting about this on this forum for the fact that I'm only interested in reaching a few rather than spewing across the web.
This is the place to discuss these kinds of issues.It's nothing personal.
My first thought was uh-oh,what else.the straps at this point aren't an issue because I've worked out a system without them(Bulkhead outfitting).
Then I figured how bad could it be?Maybe a couple of beads of water in one or two spots.So I filled it about 6 inches deep,wiped any water of the hull and started looking.
After not even a minute I saw 3, then 2 more,then 3 in the bow area,then two more in the stern.they were pretty much spread out.They certainly didn't "Leak"
enough that you would ever notice paddling it.
My next concern was that as I paddled and put some wear on it that it might get worse.
Then I thought,crap I Love this boat.
I'm not "Bashing" anyone,simply stating my feeling on the subject

Zephyr

issues,but once again

Boat

billcanoes · Post by **billcanoes** » Wed Apr 05, 2006 1:31 am

In fairness to Esquif-
I emailed Jacques this afternoon at Michelles with Esquifs address, (which is the one I had) and then called this afternoon, but he had left -so he hasn't had a chance to respond. (or at least hasn't seen my emails- he's obviously seen the post)

-None of us had noticed a problem with the dryness, so it was only through Esquif's notification that a problem was discovered. I think that's a very brave step. I'm much happier having the flow work the way it did rather than vice versa-

In fairness to owners
-As expensive as all boats are, I also don't think it's wrong if someone gets upset about it when a problem is discovered.

Bill Reap

Sir Adam · Post by **Sir Adam** » Wed Apr 05, 2006 3:01 am

So far I believe everyone is behaving OK, but I am keeping an eye on this post.

Yes, if there is a problem it is OK to post it AFTER having contacted the manufacturer. It is important to the community that we know how these boats hold up.

It is EQUALLY, if not MORE important that you post how Esquif handles it.

It's a new boat. There WILL be production problems. Later boats will be better. The same holds true with the Wheelboy-a lot of folks have boats lighter than mine, and with grab loops, etc... It's the "cost" of being "cutting edge" (aka "bleeding edge"

).

I have been VERY impressed with how Esquif has handled this so far (contacting folks-how many boat manufacturers would have done THAT?), and to me this is MUCH more important than any near-term issues with the boat. A manufacturer that communicates with it's customers and stands behind their product, or tries to come to a fair resolution is to be commended. I urge JChasse to continue posting here, as he sees fit, to keep us apprised of the situation.

If things get out of hand either way I WILL lock this post. But so far I feel everyone has been "in bounds", if a bit more emotional than normal (and I can understand and identify with it, believe me! We won't get into my tele-ski debacle from September-December...that continues...).

One last item- in ultralight boats of flatwater and whitewater type it IS NOT abnormal to have pin holes in my experience-it can often be fixed with a brushed on layer (inside) of resin, epoxy, or paint. Yes, it does add a little weight, but as long as the structure is there overall you've just made your craft waterproof again, and it's now back to "factory perfect".

Tiggy · Post by **Tiggy** » Wed Apr 05, 2006 4:08 am

yup, thats why I havent bought a hybrid car yet, let the tech prove itself first, Like on the poor bastard in the previous posts. Doh!

If I could afford it, I'd certainly own an Esquiff (after paddling it). They look like nice boats and there are not alot of "cutting edge" canoe companies out there.
So how fast does a boat leak with pinholes anyway and why the heck arent you swamping the bugger?

Later , Time to glue da' knee pads. My first Ocoee, lol, tried tested ABS Hull.

C-Forum