I am considering an OC1..... looking at Mohawks because the price is right. The boats I've paddled are limited. I've paddled a Rival, Ocoee, Probe 12, Outrage & Genesis. The Genesis was cumbersome, the Probe and Rival were easy to paddle, the Outrage almost as easy and the Ocoee is an effort to keep upright (this Ocoee is pulled in 3" at the gunnels). I would be paddling CIII water, hopefully eventually moving to CIV.
Would I be disappointed with a Shaman? How does it compare to the Probe and is it something that can be outgrown? Is the Viper 12 as agressive as the Ocoee, or would this be a better choice if I was patient and grew into it?
Shaman vs Viper 12
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yarnellboat
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Hi Doug,
Still shopping around eh? At least you've tried several. I thought you wanted a big old boat, like the Genesis or H2Pro, for tripping?
I don't know of any first-hand reviews of the Shaman, and I've never seen one around, I don't think it's a very common boat compared to the others. From what I've read, it's not too different from Probes/Outrage/Rival.
I'm not sure whether people find (or agree on) that the Ocoee feels more edgy than the Viper. Opinion will probably be 50/50.
Chances are, if you were tense in the Ocoee, you'd be tense in the Viper - it depends on how many days/season you paddle, and whether you want to learn to love it. It comes down to a personal preference of whether or not the hard edges suit your paddling style/objectives.
If, based on your experience, you know that you're not interested in buying an Ocoee, and you don't want to grow into the learning curve of a harder chine, then I'd avoid the Viper 12 and stick with either the Shaman or 12II (assuming you're only looking at Mohawks).
Good luck, Pat.
Still shopping around eh? At least you've tried several. I thought you wanted a big old boat, like the Genesis or H2Pro, for tripping?
I don't know of any first-hand reviews of the Shaman, and I've never seen one around, I don't think it's a very common boat compared to the others. From what I've read, it's not too different from Probes/Outrage/Rival.
I'm not sure whether people find (or agree on) that the Ocoee feels more edgy than the Viper. Opinion will probably be 50/50.
Chances are, if you were tense in the Ocoee, you'd be tense in the Viper - it depends on how many days/season you paddle, and whether you want to learn to love it. It comes down to a personal preference of whether or not the hard edges suit your paddling style/objectives.
If, based on your experience, you know that you're not interested in buying an Ocoee, and you don't want to grow into the learning curve of a harder chine, then I'd avoid the Viper 12 and stick with either the Shaman or 12II (assuming you're only looking at Mohawks).
Good luck, Pat.
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oc1paddlr
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the ocoee...
you say the ocoee is pulled in 3" I'm not all that savy, but why is that? Mine is 26" wide (factory). A 23" boat seems over the top- in more ways than one I guess it IS edgy. BTW, I love my ocoee, there's no other oc1 I would replace it with (but add to the fleet... oh yea). Best of luck in your shoppin Doug. steve
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Detonator Function
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Yea, the Shaman isn't a spectacular design, as it goes along with the probe really. I've only seen one Shaman on a small river in my area (amicalola), and it handled fine (he flipped once, but it was understandable). If I had to choose between the Shaman and Probe, it would definitely be the Probe (although I'm an Esquif guy myself, and I'd normally tell you to get a zephyr).
I agree pretty much with pat about the Viper.
I agree pretty much with pat about the Viper.
Is this a rock I see before me?
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Larry Horne
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i paddled a viper 12 for a couple years and an ocoee once. i liked it. but i think the ocoee felt slightly less stable (primary). i would think that if the one you paddled was pulled in 3 inches it would be somewhat messed up and sketchy, but i don't know..
my opinion .... the viper is the boat to get.
your profile doesn't say your location. if you are in northern cali you can borrow mine.
my opinion .... the viper is the boat to get.
your profile doesn't say your location. if you are in northern cali you can borrow mine.
Larry
what's your weight and size...
the viper 12 is usually for the larger paddler...while the viper 11 is
usually paddled by the more average sized boater...
also what type of water do you wish to use it on...
the viper 11 is a really good creek boat...i really couldn't image
creeking in a shaman...
the viper 12 is usually for the larger paddler...while the viper 11 is
usually paddled by the more average sized boater...
also what type of water do you wish to use it on...
the viper 11 is a really good creek boat...i really couldn't image
creeking in a shaman...
Last edited by philcanoe on Sat Mar 17, 2007 1:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
I used to paddle a probe 14 and bought a used viper a couple of years ago. I will admit I did some unsuspected flips early on but by the end of a season you wont just feel comfortable with a viper but will probably really learn to love it. You will find the accelaration and carving ability of the boat a real benefit with some practice and I have never rolled a boat as easy as the viper! If you want to advance in the sport the viper is the clear choice here!
The Shaman:
Personally, I have to disagree with what Detonator Function said about choosing the Probe over Shaman, but that's just personal opinion. I have paddled both a little, and think the Shaman has much more potential than the Probe once you learn how to paddle it. I think the both would be fairly easy to start in, as they are both big, stable boats. The Shaman is certainly faster than the Probe. It is a slightly cut down slalom/downriver racing boat manufactured in royalex.
I'd go for a shaman any day over any of the Probes. But it is important to demo them yourself and make your own decision, as everyone's opinions differ.
I haven't paddled either the Ocoee or the Viper, but I've heard they are extremely similar.
Definitely check out the Esquif boats though. Despite the fact that they are slightly more expensive than the Mohawks (generally) they offer extremely different types of boats in terms of design.
Nate
Personally, I have to disagree with what Detonator Function said about choosing the Probe over Shaman, but that's just personal opinion. I have paddled both a little, and think the Shaman has much more potential than the Probe once you learn how to paddle it. I think the both would be fairly easy to start in, as they are both big, stable boats. The Shaman is certainly faster than the Probe. It is a slightly cut down slalom/downriver racing boat manufactured in royalex.
I'd go for a shaman any day over any of the Probes. But it is important to demo them yourself and make your own decision, as everyone's opinions differ.
I haven't paddled either the Ocoee or the Viper, but I've heard they are extremely similar.
Definitely check out the Esquif boats though. Despite the fact that they are slightly more expensive than the Mohawks (generally) they offer extremely different types of boats in terms of design.
Nate
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oc1paddlr
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doug
to clear the water here, the viper & ocoee both came from the late great Frankie Hubberd. The ocoee's hull carries the 5" rocker all the way to the stems, the viper ,same rocker, flattens the profile at the stems. As to rolling. so much depends on outfitting and how tight you fit. I can roll my ocoee no problem, I rolled a buddy's viper, took three tries. the smaller the saddle.the less dam. this is a major player in the final hip movement. p.s. them tunnels under yer saddles jest make the river mad ..of course I may be wrong about it all
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oc1paddlr
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one more thing doug...
I agree with Cory, you sound right for a Zephyr. Spend the money and get that boat. You can always sell it , but I bet you won't.
paddlr
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Thanks for all the replies. I wish I could demo everything but it's just not realistic. I think I will outgrow the Probe right away and may end up frustrated with the Viper.
Pat, I've got a Sunburst (and probably a Caption soon too) for tripping. I need something dedicated to playing.
OC, my Ocoee has a max width of 24" with wood rails. I didn't choose it - The boat is on it's last legs and I was given the boat after the original owner bought a new one. I've only had it in easy CII rapids and find myself pretty tense. Not sure how much effect the difference of 2 or 3" makes, probably not a lot.
Detonator - Zephyr seems to be the answer to everything! I've considered, but the cost difference is holding me back. I have to hide this from my wife if I want to live a long healthy life, so every $$ makes a difference.
Larry, Thanks for the offer but I'm in Ontario.
Phil, I'm on the larger side at 6'3" & 210. I dont' forsee much creeking in my future, mostly river running.
Nate, I'm considering the Nitro, but haven't paddled anything like it and worried about it's speed in crossing the flats. I might be able to demo a Detonator which could give me some idea.
Pat, I've got a Sunburst (and probably a Caption soon too) for tripping. I need something dedicated to playing.
OC, my Ocoee has a max width of 24" with wood rails. I didn't choose it - The boat is on it's last legs and I was given the boat after the original owner bought a new one. I've only had it in easy CII rapids and find myself pretty tense. Not sure how much effect the difference of 2 or 3" makes, probably not a lot.
Detonator - Zephyr seems to be the answer to everything! I've considered, but the cost difference is holding me back. I have to hide this from my wife if I want to live a long healthy life, so every $$ makes a difference.
Larry, Thanks for the offer but I'm in Ontario.
Phil, I'm on the larger side at 6'3" & 210. I dont' forsee much creeking in my future, mostly river running.
Nate, I'm considering the Nitro, but haven't paddled anything like it and worried about it's speed in crossing the flats. I might be able to demo a Detonator which could give me some idea.
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Mr.DeadLegs
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Doug I am a little large as well 6'7" 260. Don't write off creeking. You may have to work it a little more but thats part of the fun. I have paddled probes, ocoees, whitesell whirlwing, encore(currently) and the zephyr(for about a 1/4 mile). Probe is a good boat but I like the encore better. The ocoee and whirlwind I felt like I overloaded. The Zephyr is the boat, It is my next boat. If you can somehow sneek it by the wife I would. It was fast and manuverable. It didn't seem to edgy, good initial stability. You can always ask for forgiveness.
Trey
Trey
"Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to slide in sideways totally worn out, shouting "Holy large steaming pile of dog doo what a Ride" " Nolan Whitesell
Doug, I paddle an Ocoee that has been pulled in 2", so I know what you mean about edgy. BTW...I think the Bell Ocoee is a little more narrow from the factory than the Dagger Ocoee was, just something I have heard but can't substatiate.
I paddled some this fall with a paddler who had both a Shaman and a Viper 11 and he paddled my Ocoee for a few. His impression was that my Ocoee was more edgy towards the ends of the boat than the Viper, so the Viper is a bit easier on peel outs, surfing, etc. since the ends don't grab as much. That said, it still has that edge to it
The Shaman seemed to be a good handling boat...not as quick on turns as the Ocoee or Viper, but good volume and a lot more forgiving. If you want something you can hop in and paddle without having to think about it, I'd take the Shaman over the Viper. But I have to agree with some of the other posters...if I could sneak it past the wife, I would be going for the Zephyr
Jeff
I paddled some this fall with a paddler who had both a Shaman and a Viper 11 and he paddled my Ocoee for a few. His impression was that my Ocoee was more edgy towards the ends of the boat than the Viper, so the Viper is a bit easier on peel outs, surfing, etc. since the ends don't grab as much. That said, it still has that edge to it
The Shaman seemed to be a good handling boat...not as quick on turns as the Ocoee or Viper, but good volume and a lot more forgiving. If you want something you can hop in and paddle without having to think about it, I'd take the Shaman over the Viper. But I have to agree with some of the other posters...if I could sneak it past the wife, I would be going for the Zephyr
Jeff
Shaman Viper Ocoee etc.
I still paddle my Shaman now and but mostly paddle the Ocoee. The Shaman will carve a turn much more precisely than a Probe and with appropriate use of offside tilt to engange the chines in the front section, will turn on a dime - or with inappropriate use - turn over...
I am a bit shorter and a bit heaver than you and find the Ocoee to be a very fun boat - stock not pulled in. I would expect pulling it in would round the bottom, reducing primary and secondary stability. Of course I see no reason you could not install longer thwarts to remedy the problem. I don't think you are too big for the Ocoee - perhaps near the top but it will work for you.
The Ocoee is a much better boat for creeking and playing. The Shamans round stern section will stick like a magnet in a hole while the Ocoee with stay loose and give a nice ride.
The lack of bow rocker in the Shaman can make corrections more difficult if you get off angle in a front surf. It also can get stuck on a carve and be difficult to bring back. The Shaman is MUCH faster than the Ocoee and somewhat faster than the Viper and Probe.
The comments on the Viper vs. Ocoee are my impressions as well - chine more centered less rocker bigger boat.
I am a bit shorter and a bit heaver than you and find the Ocoee to be a very fun boat - stock not pulled in. I would expect pulling it in would round the bottom, reducing primary and secondary stability. Of course I see no reason you could not install longer thwarts to remedy the problem. I don't think you are too big for the Ocoee - perhaps near the top but it will work for you.
The Ocoee is a much better boat for creeking and playing. The Shamans round stern section will stick like a magnet in a hole while the Ocoee with stay loose and give a nice ride.
The lack of bow rocker in the Shaman can make corrections more difficult if you get off angle in a front surf. It also can get stuck on a carve and be difficult to bring back. The Shaman is MUCH faster than the Ocoee and somewhat faster than the Viper and Probe.
The comments on the Viper vs. Ocoee are my impressions as well - chine more centered less rocker bigger boat.
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yarnellboat
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Doug,
Larry has a good point - it may be harsh to judge the edginess of a Viper based on a pulled-in Ocoee. Plus, it sounds to me that there is some agreement that the Viper's design (with the hard chine more concentrated towards the centre of the boat's length) is less trippy than the Ocoee.
So, what you need to do is test paddle a normal Ocoee or a Viper. And, since you already have an Ocoee, all you need to do is make it "normal"!
I suggest that you give the Ocoee the TLC that it needs to be nursed another season or 2, and replace the necessary thwarts to put it back to its factory specs!.
If you fix up the Ocoee and de-pinch it, 2 things will happen: 1) you'll know how the pinching affected it and can judge the edge based on a normal hull, and 2) you may get more used to the edge and decide that you'd like a (less edgy) Viper.
As a bonus, if you toy with the Ocoee at least this season and postpone the decision, maybe your wife and your budget caould accommodate a Zephyr or something else.
If you wonder what a normal Ocoee is like, make yours normal!
Pat.
Larry has a good point - it may be harsh to judge the edginess of a Viper based on a pulled-in Ocoee. Plus, it sounds to me that there is some agreement that the Viper's design (with the hard chine more concentrated towards the centre of the boat's length) is less trippy than the Ocoee.
So, what you need to do is test paddle a normal Ocoee or a Viper. And, since you already have an Ocoee, all you need to do is make it "normal"!
I suggest that you give the Ocoee the TLC that it needs to be nursed another season or 2, and replace the necessary thwarts to put it back to its factory specs!.
If you fix up the Ocoee and de-pinch it, 2 things will happen: 1) you'll know how the pinching affected it and can judge the edge based on a normal hull, and 2) you may get more used to the edge and decide that you'd like a (less edgy) Viper.
As a bonus, if you toy with the Ocoee at least this season and postpone the decision, maybe your wife and your budget caould accommodate a Zephyr or something else.
If you wonder what a normal Ocoee is like, make yours normal!
Pat.