Looking for suggestions for me getting another WW Open Boat

[cc]

Hey Colin,

Readig this thread, and knowing you from the various Gull races, you have seen the "Bulldog" Standard wt is 44lbs outfitted, on the base model. I can install secured hatches in those composite air chambers not only for your pelican case but any other gear to prevent those "yard sale" spills on the river. Also I will custom cut the cockpit to fit your leg length, and any personal colour you choose, as you well know, we custom paint all our boats.
(Bulldog-Splash-Pilot)

Your weight range fits the Bulldog, and folks like Mike Yee paddle my boats hard and relentless. So that answers the element of durability. Stability...very stable, and responsive. Gaten has paddled this boat as well with his friends in Qubec, folks love the idea of no airbags to deal with.And now secured storage for your cameras which are worth more than most paddlers personal automobiles

Send me a e-mail and I'll get a demo boat out to you to try in the warm pool and open water if we can find any.

C.C.

a.k.a.
andy@compositecreations.ca

[DB]

Colin,

You said: "I am a big guy. I would like my new mistress to be something that is fairly stable in the 11 to 12 foot range and way lighter than my current boat. I want to work more on my technical paddling skills which would include a proper forward and cross forward stroke."

I'm 6' 3", 210-220 pounds. Assuming that you want a boat that will help you perfect class 3 skills, I have three suggestions (based on my experience) in order of preference:

1) Mohawk Viper 12 - very stable, fairly dry, but the hard chines require that you anticipate, and aggressively lean the boat. If I had the choice of only one boat, this would be it.

2) Dagger Rival (hard to find in good condition) - very dry, very good secondary stability, excellent all around river runner.

3) Mohawk Shaman 12 - I love this boat. Good primary stability, excellent secondary stability. It’s easy to paddle, but hard to master: the boat is very susceptible to subtle weight shifts – unintended forward leans will send it (and you) in unexpected directions. Probably the most maneuverable of the three.

[boathead]

HEY COLIN... I AM 6'0 / 225 LBS.....I have a Taureau, Quake, Spanish Fly, Ocoee, Outrage, and converted Super EZ and Pyranha I4 C-ones. I paddle and like them all. Depending on water levels, etc. However if I am making a P.F.D. run or a bigger water outing, I pull the ole trusty Quake out of the quiver. Not fast <but>, stable and NO surprises, And runs creeks and still surfs great. I guess you could call her an Old School "X" Boat........At least give an X boat a test paddle before you lay down your cash.......Thats my 2 cents worth......."Paddle- On" .............The Boathead.....

[Eric Nyre]

Let us know how the Nitro works, as that will give us some basis for suggestions.

I'm 6'5 and 240 lbs, and would also vote for both the Prodigy X and the Nitro. They are different creatures, but both hold the weight well.

Prodigy X - excellent hull speed, fairly nible, my choice for when we're doing 15-20 miles in a day and I don't want to drag.

Nitro - Mine will get here in March, so not much time in one yet. A little more lively than the Prodigy X, spins much faster, and way slower on the flats.

A third boat would be the standard Vertige. It's more stable than the Prodigy X, just a hair slower, a hair dryer, and very similar except for the increased stability.

[billcanoes]

I'd vote for the Viper 12, though I'm 40lbs lighter- it sounds like with the storage concers you want to put the case behind your seat- not dig for it...

Anyway I paddled a vertige- very briefly and liked it's speed, I know not apples to apples, but I think displacement.. i.e. a Viper 11 would sit lower, so you'd be pushing water out of the way--- anyway, the Viper 12 is fast, I thought stable, and turns great...I've never tried Richard's Bell- but he looks good in it..

Maybe a Bell Ocoee, not sure where the weight limit cuts off there, but you want a boat thats different- from yours, anyway I thought the outrage X was barge like- NOT at first mind you- It was my first true WW boat- and it was great for the stability- but after a year I got in a Viper 12 for 2-3 minutes and I posted my Outrage X within a day- I was also at the cutoff point for outrage to outrage x- 190, so maybe it was just not the right size for me--

[c1swim]

". I would like my new mistress to be something that is fairly stable in the 11 to 12 foot range and way lighter than my current boat. I want to work more on my technical paddling skills which would include a proper forward and cross forward stroke. "

Try the Viper 12. Very stable, once you get a handle on the edge.
Until then, be prepared to be upside down some. But, it will go a long------------way in improving those technical skills. Good luck in your search. and remember... the path is the way.

[cmnypny]

I paddled Neil's Rival on saturday. It was ok at least I stayed upright but there wasn't much water to really play in to really give it a test run.

The Nitro is fun ... not sure why people say it is a slow boat on flatwater. I would like to spend more time in it in bigger water like the Ottawa but not at this time of the year. Maybe Geoff will let me borrow again later on. I was being cautious as I did not want to rip a hole in his boat therefore avoiding Bell Ringer. But for the most part it is definitely on my list.

[sbroam]

...
you have seen the "Bulldog" Standard wt is 44lbs outfitted, on the base model. I can install secured hatches in those composite air chambers not only for your pelican case but any other gear to prevent those "yard sale" spills on the river. Also I will custom cut the cockpit to fit your leg length, and any personal colour you choose, as you well know, we custom paint all our boats.
(Bulldog-Splash-Pilot)
...

What is this "Bulldog" of which you speak? Sounds interesting... Pictures?

[the great gonzo]

Scott,

here you can find some pictures (courtesy of cmypny) of Andy Phillips (composite creations), the designer (as fa as I know) and builder of the Bulldog, paddling one at the 2007 Gull River Slalom:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/12726359@N ... 796342756/

martin a.k.a. the great gonzo!

[Open Gate]

What is this "Bulldog" of which you speak? Sounds interesting... Pictures?

Fun boat. Tried it on a class III-IV run a few years ago in Lac St-Jean(Basse métabétchouane river).

Made by Composite Creations, composite boat obviously, caissons replace the air bags, makes funky BOINK noise when hit waves. Relatively fast(coming from a play boat perspective), predictable and manouevrable.

I liked it, but a few improvements were necessary on the version I tried.
Caisson vertical face inside the boat were not friendly for playing, when you flipped they would be hit by the green water, which made quite an impact(stripped me out of the boat the 1st time, boat left the whole, I stayed ). Top of the caisson should have been brought up to the height of the sides so not to catch and trap water in the boat.

Other then this it was a fun boat to paddle !

It looks exatly like the splash (also made by composite creations), but bigger.

Give it a try if you can !

[the great gonzo]

I agree with Open Gate, it's a fun boat. I only paddled it briefly in the lower section of the Gull (class II-III), below Whitehorse Falls.
Surfs nicely, thanks to the flat center section of the hull. The boat has a double chine in the center, somewhat similar to the Nitro/ Detonator, but completely different ends. It'a about 10ft long, I think.

I don't think however that it looks all that much like a spalsh, apart from the construction. The Splash has rounded edges and a smooth rocker transition and generally a fairly rounded shape, while the Bulldog has a much boxier shape, a fairly abrupt rocker transition and boxier, harder edges.

Just my 2 cents.

martin a.k.a. the great gonzo!

[msims]

Hey why doesnt he just make the boat without the built-in bulk-heads? Would be a tad lighter and might not have the firmess that Open Gate talks about... is it strength?

M

[Open Gate]

1 - I beleive strenght is an issue.

Composite creations do float skis for hydro planes. You're essentially paddling a float ski...with a funky shape. These are closed and though providing stiffness to the assembly.

May be they could remove the caissons but structure beams would need to be introduced for reinforcement.

Feedback from Andy and Al on this, you guys are the experts ???

2 - Agreed with Martin here, was a bit quick in comparing the bulldog and splash. Same material and caissons but shapes are different. Good point !

[the great gonzo]

Not sure if strengthe is an issue here. The layup seems plenty strong to me, it is certainly stronger than in any open slalom boats I have seen, and they don't have any built-in bulkheads.
Maybe torsional stiffness or flex may be an issue, but a few thwarts should take care of that.

That said, I find the idea of the built-in floatation extremely interesting, particularly in conjunction with the hatches.
IMHO the idea is sound, it just needs, as Open Gate mentioned, some tweaks, like pulling the floatation boxes all the way up to the gunnels.

martin a.k.a. the great gonzo!

[cc]

Yes, yes ...and yes to all thous questions and comments.

As everyone can see here, some up dates in the tanks were needed and attained. I raised the tank higher to the gunnel...a lot.. like just beneath the gunnel. I made the overall cockpit even smaller pulling away that un-wanted space behind the saddle.
I then put in some hatches to store things like lunch, 1st aid kit etc. Now we put anchors on the boat tank faces to allocate places (at your request) for attaching throw bags, break down paddles, quick access items.

The tanks in the hull increase the impact ability and stiffness of the boat. As I noted to one reader this week "I would like to jack up the truck slide the boat under, set the truck down on it change a tire and then pull boat and go paddle the boat" just to show how strong the boat is. We are trying to find the time to cut a boat in half and stand on the composite gunnels all in real time video to prove the stiffness of the boat. Yes you can order a Bulldog and install airbags. But as folks like Mike Yee of MikeYeeOutfitting have commented " you get to the river with a Bulldog pull it off the truck and instant access to the river, everyone else is still blowing up bags, some kayakers included and your waiting in the first eddy or ripping up a surf. The fact we all live in a "time sensitive" world these days we all want to enjoy the paddle experience, not fight with air bags, not repair airbags, not deal with wood trim every season, as composite gunnels are standard in our build process and maintenance free.

I hope that Martin(gonzo) and Gaten both get a chance to paddle a boat with the updates because your in put, and ability to compare, before and after, thats what counts.
Gaten the Bulkhead set up you asked about is available now as well.

I will be at Louie fest in March, with the most recent boats and right now am SOLD OUT of boats with a build list I'am tackling to have evryones boats ready for the spring. Boats will also be at Palmerfest in May

The other element of tackle is my website. I apologize for this under construction thing. I will do as much as I can to get it finished with video clips, testimonials, and general info.

e-mail andy@compositecreations.ca

site :www.compositecreations.ca (InternetExplorer/Google)

Andy Phillips
Composite Creations