I had the same problem when I started,, I tought there was a problem with my boat (nitro). Actually, the problem was the angle of my blade when I sweep out. To get the good angle, the tumb of your top hand must point to the outside and toward your thigh so the blade is at a 45 degree angle. Other than that, make sure your face is in the bag, you forehead touch your lower hand all the time and take your time do not rush. I also move up the grip of my lower hand a bit toward the handle so the blade can reach further out. I find it hard to explain but good luck. Work on the angle of the blade and sweep hard outside and you will get on your good side.
Do not switch your grip so your offside becomes your onside because 80% of the time you will flip on your offside. You will have to switch all the time.
OC roll when tipping to the offside.
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Mike W.
- CBoats.net Staff
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Re: offside hangup
A couple of Armadas ago I tried Lil'D's Zoom. Great little boat 
But when I flipped it hung up on the offside. I tried & tried, but couldn't get it to come up. With KNeal there, there was NO WAY I was going to swim 
After several failed attempts I switched hands & rolled lefty. The boat came right up.
This past summer jnorto01 showed me his trick. It does work & you don't have to switch hands.
But when I flipped it hung up on the offside. I tried & tried, but couldn't get it to come up. With KNeal there, there was NO WAY I was going to swim After several failed attempts I switched hands & rolled lefty. The boat came right up. This past summer jnorto01 showed me his trick. It does work & you don't have to switch hands.
The only other thing I can think of is to cut down the ends of the boat to straighten out the sheer-line.jnorto01 wrote:My Zoom hangs up like this if I flip slowly to my offside. What I do is twist my torso so I'm looking up (on the offside), reach the paddle back to the stern about a foot under water and jam it to the surface. This thows the boat to the onside and I just slide under and roll. It takes a lot longer to describe than to do. Iv'e found this very quick and easy to do even in combat roll situations. Sorry, I don't have video. Its easy once you see it. Jim
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bobthepainter
- Pain Boater
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- Location: arkansas
well i'm glad too see that there is a trick to rolling.man o man i'm sore from twisting! and flopping all around. the good part is the boat wouldn't lay upside down, it's more of 3/4 of the way with enough air space that you can get a good carp gasp. i know i know! get your laugh in! but we all have start SOMEPLACE. thank you for the input i have about 8 more pool dates .and will post my progress 
I don't have video of my trick that I use when I get stuck on the offside, but when I go to a few pool sessions this winter I'll see if I can find someone to take video and I'll post it up. The Zoom can be a real stinker for getting stuck on the offside. I only get stuck if I flip very slowly to the offside. If I know I'm going to offside flip and there is just no way of getting a good brace I just tuck tight and lean into the flip to carry the momentum the whole way around and into the roll. Hope this helps. Jim
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yarnellboat
- C Maven
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Bob,
You'll have to decide what deck you want to go under, what orientation you want your paddle in when you go under the boat, and at what position you "landmark" your readiness...
Note that some of the comments above have been about going under the stern deck (i.e., leaning back when you go under the boat instead of bending forward), and some have been about having your blade in a low-brace orientation.
Try all of the above once you've got the basics, but I think the most commom way to learn is by going under your front deck and using a "high brace" sweep under your bow deck (to get you paddle and body over to yor on-side), then you need to flip your paddle face for the low-brace roll.
Some people get oriented setting-up their paddle while they're upside down and leaning toward the float bags. Some people don't landmark at that set-up, but do it at the stage where they're perpendicular to the boat and their paddle is ready for the low-brace roll. Whatever works.
A couple of things that might help at the pool:
If you're not opening eyes, try using some goggles so you can watch eveything.
Mark one side of your paddle with tape or something so that you (and anybody watching you) can differentiate which side of the blade is the power face and which is the low-brace side.
Have somebody in the pool to grab your paddle tip and guide it through the water to your on-side set-up.
Have a couple of people in the pool there to roll you up, so that you don't actually have to worry about rolling and you can focus all your time/breath on getting oriented and moving to where you need to be.
It's hard to think about the positioning and figure it out - it works better as a muscle-memory-thing, it just needs to "click" for your mind & body to know what to do & where to go.
Good luck, PY.
You'll have to decide what deck you want to go under, what orientation you want your paddle in when you go under the boat, and at what position you "landmark" your readiness...
Note that some of the comments above have been about going under the stern deck (i.e., leaning back when you go under the boat instead of bending forward), and some have been about having your blade in a low-brace orientation.
Try all of the above once you've got the basics, but I think the most commom way to learn is by going under your front deck and using a "high brace" sweep under your bow deck (to get you paddle and body over to yor on-side), then you need to flip your paddle face for the low-brace roll.
Some people get oriented setting-up their paddle while they're upside down and leaning toward the float bags. Some people don't landmark at that set-up, but do it at the stage where they're perpendicular to the boat and their paddle is ready for the low-brace roll. Whatever works.
A couple of things that might help at the pool:
If you're not opening eyes, try using some goggles so you can watch eveything.
Mark one side of your paddle with tape or something so that you (and anybody watching you) can differentiate which side of the blade is the power face and which is the low-brace side.
Have somebody in the pool to grab your paddle tip and guide it through the water to your on-side set-up.
Have a couple of people in the pool there to roll you up, so that you don't actually have to worry about rolling and you can focus all your time/breath on getting oriented and moving to where you need to be.
It's hard to think about the positioning and figure it out - it works better as a muscle-memory-thing, it just needs to "click" for your mind & body to know what to do & where to go.
Good luck, PY.
Last edited by yarnellboat on Mon Dec 10, 2007 11:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I'm still learning to roll, but it looks like the same problem I had with roling the esquif salsa.
That boat has a really strong water-seal, at least in comparison with the zoom for example.
The 2 times I managed to roll the salsa, in the pool, I really needed the high brace to break the water-seal (looks the same to me as flipping the canoe to your onside) and then continue with a low brace to get up. 2-times in 1.30h I managed. Most of the other times were: almost almost almost, nooooooooooooooo, setup and try again
.
I haven't done any ww-rolls, since I only managed a few pool-rolls, but the problem described seems very familiar.
Happy rolling
That boat has a really strong water-seal, at least in comparison with the zoom for example.
The 2 times I managed to roll the salsa, in the pool, I really needed the high brace to break the water-seal (looks the same to me as flipping the canoe to your onside) and then continue with a low brace to get up. 2-times in 1.30h I managed. Most of the other times were: almost almost almost, nooooooooooooooo, setup and try again
.I haven't done any ww-rolls, since I only managed a few pool-rolls, but the problem described seems very familiar.
Happy rolling
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bobthepainter
- Pain Boater
- Posts: 52
- Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2007 11:26 pm
- Location: arkansas
really, thank you guys!!........ the tips and pointers, man ,you can't get stuff like this anyware! i have had this zoom since summer, but the lack of rain has made very hard to enjoy it. my first few trips on long flat water had me thinking, if this was a good canoe or not . i got to go to a dam release........ holy cow what a differnce moving water makes! the eddie turns ! you can't make them any faster! surfin' ..ha-ha! you can surf anything. that made me think i had made the right choice, had a few buddys try my new toy, and right off you could tell that a zoom is ... well not like a anything else! and winter rains falling.i have homework too do! ........again thankyou very much.-
bobthepainter
- Pain Boater
- Posts: 52
- Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2007 11:26 pm
- Location: arkansas
well ,..yes being the first time "EVER" in a whitewater canoe. i thought it would be best to dump out of it where i could self-rescue myself?.........( has it been that long since you started the climb up the ladder? ) baby steps my man!..... working on building a good solid feel. before moving on kinda' thing....you can only learn by going and doing it! and most of the time you can tell pretty quick that... THAT DIDN'T WORK! and you-tube is only so good as far as getting an idea of how to start to making improvements. what it is good for is seeing that you could be one of those guys, with time on the water.and thats got me all pumped ! so by joining the arkansas canoe club and paddling with all kind of good people eager to help i have found that most paddlers are great for so much information . thats what brought me to this site. man it's packed with so much! not to mention all the hack and glue ideas!.......and i am among fellow zoomers!! after 7 or 8 trips i have made it back to the put- in dry, only because i was to afraid of dumping. in turn has made me be a better paddler
baby steps my man!..... working on building a good solid feel. before moving on kinda' thing....you can only learn by going and doing it! and most of the time you can tell pretty quick that... THAT DIDN'T WORK! and you-tube is only so good as far as getting an idea of how to start to making improvements. what it is good for is seeing that you could be one of those guys, with time on the water.and thats got me all pumped ! so by joining the arkansas canoe club and paddling with all kind of good people eager to help i have found that most paddlers are great for so much information . thats what brought me to this site. man it's packed with so much! not to mention all the hack and glue ideas!.......and i am among fellow zoomers!! after 7 or 8 trips i have made it back to the put- in dry, only because i was to afraid of dumping. in turn has made me be a better paddlertry this
Ok, heres my 2 cents
first it depends on the roll you are doing, If you do a new school roll where you set up on you deck (set up meaning tucked position, before you sweep out), with paddle out in front of you and your top hand in your gut all twisted up, I can't help you.
If you roll old-school where you set up (set up meaning tucked position, before you sweep out) on the side of the boat like in a kayak, with your hands out over the gunwal, not rotating on top of the paddle into the low brace position untill after the sweep out, try this:
-Set up like normal, ignore the position of the boat just tuck and reach over the side with you paddle
-sweep back with your wrist cocked forward, this will feather your blade so that it planes toward the surface (power face still facing down at this point). This action will skull you over and up into a good position. be sure to sweep with your body not just your arms (this keeps you "in the box" and sets you up for success.
-finish your roll like you normally would, flip on top of your paddle and low brace, hip snap like Elvis and keep your head down.
J. Wood
first it depends on the roll you are doing, If you do a new school roll where you set up on you deck (set up meaning tucked position, before you sweep out), with paddle out in front of you and your top hand in your gut all twisted up, I can't help you.
If you roll old-school where you set up (set up meaning tucked position, before you sweep out) on the side of the boat like in a kayak, with your hands out over the gunwal, not rotating on top of the paddle into the low brace position untill after the sweep out, try this:
-Set up like normal, ignore the position of the boat just tuck and reach over the side with you paddle
-sweep back with your wrist cocked forward, this will feather your blade so that it planes toward the surface (power face still facing down at this point). This action will skull you over and up into a good position. be sure to sweep with your body not just your arms (this keeps you "in the box" and sets you up for success.
-finish your roll like you normally would, flip on top of your paddle and low brace, hip snap like Elvis and keep your head down.
J. Wood
Will dance for rain