I did a search about this and nothing decisive came back so here goes. I am currently paddling an OC-1 and have been checking out some of the C-1 video here and it looks pretty cool.
I have a couple of questions.
First what are some conversion hulls that I might look for? I am 6' and currently around 255 lbs. I am agressively trying to get back to my pre-marital weight of +/- 200 lbs. A goal that, judging by the current trend, should take until next fall.
What is going from OC-1 to C-1 like? Is the skill set completely different? Is the learning curve in C-1 faster or slower than OC-1? I want to eventually step up from II-III- to III-IV- would this accelerate that progression? It also seems like the play in a C-1 is much more dynamic. Which brings up the creeking vs. play question. How playable would a creeking hull conversion be? It seems like the hulls that would carry my current weight would be mainly creekers. If kayak specs. state that it will handle a certain paddler weight does that translate to C-1?
I know this is a lot of questions at once. I am hoping to get a dialogue going here. I may have wanted to post this in the beginners forum if so I apologize.
Thanks,
Andy
OC-1 to C-1 Paddling
Moderators: kenneth, sbroam, TheKrikkitWars, Mike W., Sir Adam, KNeal, PAC, adamin
For me the transition wasn't bad at all, I didn't have a great roll when I made the switch so that caused some rough areas. You'll notice right away is that you're going to be rolling a lot more, from running stuff to just screwing around.
My first conversions were an H3 and a SuperEZ, I'm 6'5" and around 210lbs. These made pretty nice C1s for my size and the H3 really felt the closest to a canoe and is what I spent most of my time in learning. You'll begin to notice that you have a butt-ton more maneuverability and don't have to plan things out as far in advance. Another thing I liked were that C1s are also quicker to accelerate, meaning short attainments and getting back on features was much more enjoyable as apposed to a chore.
You'll use a lot of the skills from open boating in C1 padding but you not so much with the longer finesse moves that were necessary, instead you'll find that the same things can be accomplished with twitch and short little flick moves in a C1 which goes back to maneuverability.
Comfort will be an issue, if your used to paddling an open boat and staying down in the saddle for long periods of time then the adjustment won't be to bad. Just try and get as many paddling days in at first that you can to help your legs make the transition. One thing related to comfort that I found was the feeling of almost being vulnerable at first, I was used to having a large "shell" around me with the open boat that covered up to my waist, then sitting in a C1 with half my butt and hips above the cockpit rim. You may experience this or not, for me low saddles and hip pads helped. Which is the next thing.
Hip pads, once you start using these, you'll be like "ZOMGLOLBBQw00T1337!!!!! I am in teh luv". They really made the switch stick for me, them along with using a wide a saddle as possible really really really puts you in contact with the boat. I miss these things dearly now when on rare occasions when I get into an open boat. You feel so connected to the boat and it takes so much less effort to make the hull do what you want it to and adds a layer of stability I never found in an open boat.
As for a boat to convert, 2 things to primarily look at with your height and weight is width and hull shape. Wide flat bottom hulls who's planing surface doesn't break to bad make better C1s. Some of the smaller paddlers can convert just about anything but us full grown folk have to pick our boats a little more carefully. If I were you, I'd see if I could find a large Burn. It's a semi creeker but it's a fine boat and it'd be great for learning. I own one and it's performed like a champ on some landings and runs that I've been less than textbook on. It'll probably be a nice comfortable transition for you and it has a pretty roomy cockpit for a conversion. Also it's a boat that you keep around for a long time. As for play, you'll be able to do all your open boat tricks (*front and side surf....) plus more with spins, enders, rock spins, etc... If you want something more playful you could check out a large Flirt but I think the Burn would serve you better.
Good luck and look forward to running that first big drop in a C1 and realizing "w00t, my boat's not a 800lb pig full of water!!!"
*waiting for some yahoo to reply with a picture of themselves in a fly doing an ender crying about how you can do more than side and front surf in an open boat.
My first conversions were an H3 and a SuperEZ, I'm 6'5" and around 210lbs. These made pretty nice C1s for my size and the H3 really felt the closest to a canoe and is what I spent most of my time in learning. You'll begin to notice that you have a butt-ton more maneuverability and don't have to plan things out as far in advance. Another thing I liked were that C1s are also quicker to accelerate, meaning short attainments and getting back on features was much more enjoyable as apposed to a chore.
You'll use a lot of the skills from open boating in C1 padding but you not so much with the longer finesse moves that were necessary, instead you'll find that the same things can be accomplished with twitch and short little flick moves in a C1 which goes back to maneuverability.
Comfort will be an issue, if your used to paddling an open boat and staying down in the saddle for long periods of time then the adjustment won't be to bad. Just try and get as many paddling days in at first that you can to help your legs make the transition. One thing related to comfort that I found was the feeling of almost being vulnerable at first, I was used to having a large "shell" around me with the open boat that covered up to my waist, then sitting in a C1 with half my butt and hips above the cockpit rim. You may experience this or not, for me low saddles and hip pads helped. Which is the next thing.
Hip pads, once you start using these, you'll be like "ZOMGLOLBBQw00T1337!!!!! I am in teh luv". They really made the switch stick for me, them along with using a wide a saddle as possible really really really puts you in contact with the boat. I miss these things dearly now when on rare occasions when I get into an open boat. You feel so connected to the boat and it takes so much less effort to make the hull do what you want it to and adds a layer of stability I never found in an open boat.
As for a boat to convert, 2 things to primarily look at with your height and weight is width and hull shape. Wide flat bottom hulls who's planing surface doesn't break to bad make better C1s. Some of the smaller paddlers can convert just about anything but us full grown folk have to pick our boats a little more carefully. If I were you, I'd see if I could find a large Burn. It's a semi creeker but it's a fine boat and it'd be great for learning. I own one and it's performed like a champ on some landings and runs that I've been less than textbook on. It'll probably be a nice comfortable transition for you and it has a pretty roomy cockpit for a conversion. Also it's a boat that you keep around for a long time. As for play, you'll be able to do all your open boat tricks (*front and side surf....) plus more with spins, enders, rock spins, etc... If you want something more playful you could check out a large Flirt but I think the Burn would serve you better.
Good luck and look forward to running that first big drop in a C1 and realizing "w00t, my boat's not a 800lb pig full of water!!!"
*waiting for some yahoo to reply with a picture of themselves in a fly doing an ender crying about how you can do more than side and front surf in an open boat.
i r a p|r@t3
yeaaaaaaaarrrrggg
yeaaaaaaaarrrrggg
Andy; I currently paddle an Ocoee OC-1 and a Finkenmeister C-1 and a Dagger GT 8.1 conversion if that helps with perspective. I'd say everything happens mostly the same in a C-1 as an OC-1, it all just happens a lot faster. If you don't currently have a bomber roll you will soon. If you are used to taking long forward strokes with a glide and a stern correction, you are in for some surprises. Any C-1, conversion or made that way on purpose, handles much better when paddled from the bow with your weight centered or forward - definitely not leaning back. If I were you, I'd try to find a Cascade and learn to paddle it and roll it well first, then gradually morph to shorter more nimble conversion hulls. Plan on dropping back to class III'ish stuff until you get use to the new boat. There's something to be said for dry and a dependble roll, but the cost is more pain at least during the transition.
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yarnellboat
- C Maven
- Posts: 1331
- Joined: Wed Apr 06, 2005 8:54 pm
- Location: Winnipeg
- Contact:
Andy, Sounds like you & I are at about the same place with c-boating. My OC is an Outrage and now I have a WS Score as a C-1.
I actually got the Score a while ago, but I've had trouble fitting into it and getting comfortable. Eventually I had to get out the heat gun and a car jack and boost the rim - I'm about 215lbs and I've got thick quads. I still can't sit in the thing for very long without my feet going to painfully to sleep, my saddle is now up to about 8 or 8.5", same as my OC, and I'm playing with the ankle blocks, but I'm a long ways from running any real rivers in it.
As stated, you'll be paddling upfront and offside a lot more and your rolls will get better. Those the biggest differences. Paddling C-1 will make your OC seem uber stable, and you can really tell what your strokes are doing, so C-1ing will improve your abilities in the OC. That's my main interest, entertainment and improving my paddling skills - I'll probably never be a serious C-1er.
I went with a river-running playboat to start, because I won't get into any creeking or running unless I can get comfortable C-1ing. Basically creeking hulls and playboats are quite different, it's kinda one or the other, and I wanted my playboat (C-1) to be more different from my OC.
There some good, long threads of mine somewhere about these conversions when I was contemplating and outfitting the Score, I'll try searching the forum for "score", "215", "210" etc. There's surprisingly many of us in 200+lbs club.
The full-grown playboats that come to mind as often-recommended are, in oreder of certainty: the Score, the SuperEZ, Large Flirt, SuperFun. You can also try searching for these boats names, any thread about the SuperEZ will have info from large paddlers.
PY.
I actually got the Score a while ago, but I've had trouble fitting into it and getting comfortable. Eventually I had to get out the heat gun and a car jack and boost the rim - I'm about 215lbs and I've got thick quads. I still can't sit in the thing for very long without my feet going to painfully to sleep, my saddle is now up to about 8 or 8.5", same as my OC, and I'm playing with the ankle blocks, but I'm a long ways from running any real rivers in it.
As stated, you'll be paddling upfront and offside a lot more and your rolls will get better. Those the biggest differences. Paddling C-1 will make your OC seem uber stable, and you can really tell what your strokes are doing, so C-1ing will improve your abilities in the OC. That's my main interest, entertainment and improving my paddling skills - I'll probably never be a serious C-1er.
I went with a river-running playboat to start, because I won't get into any creeking or running unless I can get comfortable C-1ing. Basically creeking hulls and playboats are quite different, it's kinda one or the other, and I wanted my playboat (C-1) to be more different from my OC.
There some good, long threads of mine somewhere about these conversions when I was contemplating and outfitting the Score, I'll try searching the forum for "score", "215", "210" etc. There's surprisingly many of us in 200+lbs club.
The full-grown playboats that come to mind as often-recommended are, in oreder of certainty: the Score, the SuperEZ, Large Flirt, SuperFun. You can also try searching for these boats names, any thread about the SuperEZ will have info from large paddlers.
PY.
I'm making the switch from OC1 to C1 rightnow myself, I have a Dagger Centrifuge that I'm attempting to learn in. On Jan 5 or 6 I'm paddling the top of Sec4 from the Bull to Woodall to force myself to adapt........or swim in some "wonderful warm" water.......if you want to borrow a C1 and make the run.
The advise I got on hulls was find an old school "long" playboat and convert it, hence the Centrifuge. Plus I got the boat, a skirt and a set of hand paddles (which surprisingly you can use) for $300.
The advise I got on hulls was find an old school "long" playboat and convert it, hence the Centrifuge. Plus I got the boat, a skirt and a set of hand paddles (which surprisingly you can use) for $300.
[img]http://photos-461.ll.facebook.com/photo ... 07_731.jpg[/img]
I am 210 today was my first run in my LL Airhead. I fit in it pretty good. I have never been in a C1 before and I had a combat roll with some fairly serious consequences (ice shelves). The roll it dead easy with the proper motivation!
I think I am hooked!!!!
I am 210 today was my first run in my LL Airhead. I fit in it pretty good. I have never been in a C1 before and I had a combat roll with some fairly serious consequences (ice shelves). The roll it dead easy with the proper motivation!
I think I am hooked!!!!
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philinasheville
- C Guru
- Posts: 166
- Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 5:52 pm
I prefer cabin-forward control, but how well it works depends more on the way the boat is set up, and on the height and weight of the paddler, than on the mere intention.cheajack wrote: If you are used to taking long forward strokes with a glide and a stern correction, you are in for some surprises. Any C-1, conversion or made that way on purpose, handles much better when paddled from the bow with your weight centered or forward - definitely not leaning back.
My open boat, a Mad River Synergy, has the center seat and thwart set a bit forward, and it will track beautifully with my weight centered or forward, without any j-stroke or ruddering. But I have to lean back hard to unload the bow and get the boat more onto its wider stern when doing tight eddy turns, or when ferrying.
My old Phoenix C-1 has the cockpit too far forward for someone of my height and weight. If I lean forward, the narrow, round bow resists turning. I actually have to lean back to lift the bow enough that it will move properly. Obviously I am unlikely to bother moving the cockpit back on an old, 48 pound boat.
My Dagger Zealot likes to be paddled and controlled with a mild forward lean. It's designed that way. Oddly, while smaller and lighter paddlers have reported the stern to be catchy, with my height and weight the stern is not catchy at all, and I have to lean back with firm intention to get the stern down for a pivot.
My Millbrook Wide Ride has a relatively rounded bow underside, ant the cockpit may be a speck too much forward. The boat does not behave well if paddled with a forward lean. I have to make a conscious effort to sit up straight to get the boat to feel stable, and to unload the bow enough that it will respond well to control strokes up by the bow.
In general, more paddler height and/or more paddler weight will mean the seat position should be farther back in the boat. This is in part because most C-1 hulls are narrower in the bow and wider in the stern, or "Swedeform". Some kayak playboat conversions may have more balanced bow/stern width, or may even have wider bows. In that case, some taller, heavier paddlers might have to put the seat a speck more forward than if they were shorter and lighter.
When people do conversions of K-1 hulls, they will usually have that long kayak cockpit to allow a wide range of seat position. That should allow for adjusting the seat so that the boat responds well to both bow control strokes and stern corrections, without having to use unnatural or contradictory leans.
Well,
This definitely something to chew on. I am going to have to read this more closely tomorrow when I can digest it better. I just recently did Section 3 of the Chattooga and I would say that was at the top of my skill level at this point. I actually carried most of the bigger drops. I would have tried most of them but it was me an another guy which makes for a nice day but not as much of a safety cushion. I don't know if Section 4 continues with stuff on par with Bull Sluice, if so, I am not there yet. I appreciate the invite though.
I have rolled my Nitro a couple of times but that is far from reliable at this point. Something I plan to work on when I get my dry suit back. I took a class with Corey from TOW which was really helpful and I totally recomend if he is planning on working there again next summer.
I would love to here more thoughts, theories and philosphies about the differences in paddling and the boats that people over 200 lbs have tried.
Thanks Again,
Andy
This definitely something to chew on. I am going to have to read this more closely tomorrow when I can digest it better. I just recently did Section 3 of the Chattooga and I would say that was at the top of my skill level at this point. I actually carried most of the bigger drops. I would have tried most of them but it was me an another guy which makes for a nice day but not as much of a safety cushion. I don't know if Section 4 continues with stuff on par with Bull Sluice, if so, I am not there yet. I appreciate the invite though.
I have rolled my Nitro a couple of times but that is far from reliable at this point. Something I plan to work on when I get my dry suit back. I took a class with Corey from TOW which was really helpful and I totally recomend if he is planning on working there again next summer.
I would love to here more thoughts, theories and philosphies about the differences in paddling and the boats that people over 200 lbs have tried.
Thanks Again,
Andy
Andy-
After quite literally being raised in a whitewater canoe (Chris can vouch for this), at 21 I converted to C1. This was after destroying quite a few open boats starting with an HD-1, and progressing through a Viper-12, two Ocoees and a Savage Super-Fly. My first C1 was a converted Perception Amp. Never having paddled a playboat nor a C1 before, I put on the Numers on the Arkansas at about 3.5 feet and proceeded to discover why most decked boaters, and playboaters in particular, wear noseplugs. By the end of the summer, I had also acquired a Wavesport Y for the gnar. Since then I've also paddled a LiquidLogic Skip (play, good conversion), LiquidLogic Huck (creek, not a good conversion), and an H2 (creek, exceptional conversion).
Coming from open boating, you are going to feel most comfortable in something falling into the creekin' or river running category. When I first got in the Y, my comment was it felt like an open boat than didn't take in water. It was great. Although many will argue, that still is one of my favorite boats in the gnar. It is just so predictable.
Regarding play-ability, when it comes to throwing down, if you are hard core you can get it done in an open boat, but it is a heck of a lot of work and you need a very specialized open boat to do it. Truthfully, I have played a lot in an open boat, and much prefer a decked boat in this regard. Besides, I like wearing a skirt. It makes me feel pretty. I digress.
Regarding some of the discussion pertaining to posture and paddling style, when outfitting a boat, you are going to have to shove your seating postion way forward from where a kayaker's butt would be. My rule of thumb is to put the side of my hip bone, where it pokes out the side, next to the hole drilled for the seat. This generally moves me forward six or so inches.
Learning to stay forward is not a bad thing. In fact, it is a very good habit. This is the posture where you have the most accessibility to rotation and the boat runs the best. Thus, learning to stay forward in a C1 could also have great benefits in your open boat as well.
At the very least, jumping in a C1 is a fun experiment! If not initially for you, for your buddies on shore! Truthfully though, it is not really better or worse, but different and new, offering a new experience on the river.
After quite literally being raised in a whitewater canoe (Chris can vouch for this), at 21 I converted to C1. This was after destroying quite a few open boats starting with an HD-1, and progressing through a Viper-12, two Ocoees and a Savage Super-Fly. My first C1 was a converted Perception Amp. Never having paddled a playboat nor a C1 before, I put on the Numers on the Arkansas at about 3.5 feet and proceeded to discover why most decked boaters, and playboaters in particular, wear noseplugs. By the end of the summer, I had also acquired a Wavesport Y for the gnar. Since then I've also paddled a LiquidLogic Skip (play, good conversion), LiquidLogic Huck (creek, not a good conversion), and an H2 (creek, exceptional conversion).
Coming from open boating, you are going to feel most comfortable in something falling into the creekin' or river running category. When I first got in the Y, my comment was it felt like an open boat than didn't take in water. It was great. Although many will argue, that still is one of my favorite boats in the gnar. It is just so predictable.
Regarding play-ability, when it comes to throwing down, if you are hard core you can get it done in an open boat, but it is a heck of a lot of work and you need a very specialized open boat to do it. Truthfully, I have played a lot in an open boat, and much prefer a decked boat in this regard. Besides, I like wearing a skirt. It makes me feel pretty. I digress.
Regarding some of the discussion pertaining to posture and paddling style, when outfitting a boat, you are going to have to shove your seating postion way forward from where a kayaker's butt would be. My rule of thumb is to put the side of my hip bone, where it pokes out the side, next to the hole drilled for the seat. This generally moves me forward six or so inches.
Learning to stay forward is not a bad thing. In fact, it is a very good habit. This is the posture where you have the most accessibility to rotation and the boat runs the best. Thus, learning to stay forward in a C1 could also have great benefits in your open boat as well.
At the very least, jumping in a C1 is a fun experiment! If not initially for you, for your buddies on shore! Truthfully though, it is not really better or worse, but different and new, offering a new experience on the river.
Yeah, that's why being in a c-1 not properly designed or set up to be paddled "forward" can be a royal pain. 
Hi Andy,
I think you should also look at Bliss sticks "SCUD" as I believe it was designed for larger gentlemen as a playboat. I bought 1 for my wife who is a light weight, tiny tot as a creek boat and well she loved it. It has fantastic stability and plenty of room.
I understand this might be expensive, because their still fairly new, but I believe if you can try one out as K1, you may fall in love. They would make an awesome C1 boat.
Good luck.
cheers
Hippostan
I think you should also look at Bliss sticks "SCUD" as I believe it was designed for larger gentlemen as a playboat. I bought 1 for my wife who is a light weight, tiny tot as a creek boat and well she loved it. It has fantastic stability and plenty of room.
I understand this might be expensive, because their still fairly new, but I believe if you can try one out as K1, you may fall in love. They would make an awesome C1 boat.
Good luck.
cheers
Hippostan
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Glenn MacGrady
- C Boater
- Posts: 29
- Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 7:13 am
- Location: Connecticut
My advice: don't do it.
It is going to the dark side.
C boating is painful and joyless. You will find yourself missing the euphoric challenges of precisely timed water avoidance, bailing, paddling a full boat, and emptying water on a scenic riverbank. All these open boat exercises build water intake avoidance skills, upper body strength, and Emersonian self-reliance and character.
Plus, the 17 of us remaining open boaters in the U.S. need your company.
It is going to the dark side.
C boating is painful and joyless. You will find yourself missing the euphoric challenges of precisely timed water avoidance, bailing, paddling a full boat, and emptying water on a scenic riverbank. All these open boat exercises build water intake avoidance skills, upper body strength, and Emersonian self-reliance and character.
Plus, the 17 of us remaining open boaters in the U.S. need your company.
Hahaha!