Paradigm for Big Water

[kanusport]

Anyone get their paradigm out on some big stuff yet? I am looking for feedback on how the boat handles large volume water such as the ottawa or the colorado?
thanks

[Jim Michaud]

I've paddled the Grand Canyon a whole bunch of times in open canoes. Boat wise I've used Whitesells, Outrages and Captions. Of the three I preferred the Whitesell the most and the Caption the least.

There's a lot of squirrelly water in the Grand Canyon that will instantly flip a boat that has edges. The Whitesell has no chines so that's why it's my favorite. The Caption doesn't have that much of a chine but it has enough to have caused me a few very unexpected flips.

Another reason that I liked the Whitesell is that it was still stable when filled with water. It's like a round bottle laying on it's side half filled with water. As you rotate the bottle the water stays stable and the bottle turns smoothly. A flat bottom boat with hard chines is like a square bottle. As you rotate the bottle the water sloshes around and the bottle turns with a jerky motion.

A boat with hard chines is great for catching eddies but in the Grand Canyon I don't want to be any way near most of the eddies.

Jim

[beereddy]

Looks like Whitesell has bad initial stability

[squeakyknee]

I've paddled the Grand Canyon a whole bunch of times in open canoes. Boat wise I've used Whitesells, Outrages and Captions. Of the three I preferred the Whitesell the most and the Caption the least.

There's a lot of squirrelly water in the Grand Canyon that will instantly flip a boat that has edges. The Whitesell has no chines so that's why it's my favorite. The Caption doesn't have that much of a chine but it has enough to have caused me a few very unexpected flips.

Another reason that I liked the Whitesell is that it was still stable when filled with water. It's like a round bottle laying on it's side half filled with water. As you rotate the bottle the water stays stable and the bottle turns smoothly. A flat bottom boat with hard chines is like a square bottle. As you rotate the bottle the water sloshes around and the bottle turns with a jerky motion.

A boat with hard chines is great for catching eddies but in the Grand Canyon I don't want to be any way near most of the eddies.

Jim

Ummm, did you miss read the question???, he was asking about the Paradigm....

[Jim Michaud]

Ummm, did you miss read the question???, he was asking about the Paradigm....

Oops... Sorry. I should read things a little more carefully.

[kanusport]

Jims response got me thinking maybe this thread would be better entitled "looking for grandcanyon boat feedback", I was planing on taking my phantom but it's pretty beat up. The paradigm appeals to me because of the length. I appreciate your feedback about what boats have worked for you and what haven't. As for the paradigm the full ends would seem to be an asset however your point about harder chines is well taken.

[Taniwha]

I took a Dagger Rival down the Colorado the first time. It was an okay boat, but I probably wasn't good enough for that boat: I flipped and swam a few times. I liked the Rival for tracking and reasonable speed, but it was a rather wet boat to paddle and, with not enough speed, it tended to stick to eddy lines. The rather low initial stability didn't help in these situations.

Second time I paddled an Esquif Nitro. That was fun. High initial stability, some volume in the ends for dryness and a bilge pump! I really liked the 45°-double chine for carving, turning and, slightly leaned, for tracking on the flat stretches (and there are a lot, as anyone who done this trip will second...). The Nitro wasn't the fastest boat but all my colleagues with their short, uncomfortable playboat-kayak-thingies weren't that fast either and used the motor rafts for transport a lot.

Finally, the nice orange boat put me on the title of the German KANUmagazin.
[img]http://www.koru.de/Bilder/KM_0105_Titel.jpg[/img]

One day I met a fellow c-boater with a Dagger Ocoee down there and we exchanged boats for some time. The Ocoee definitely felt much more responsive (in the negative sense too) to bubbly eddy lines than the Nitro and was much wetter to paddle due to less volume front and back. I think it offered a bit more speed though.

Anyway, I think (one of?) the first trip ever in an 'solo' open boat down the Grand Canyon was done with a Mad River Explorer 16'. I wouldn't want to paddle that there. Too big, too heavy!

I haven't paddled the Paradigm on real big water, but even in less volume it tended to stick to eddy lines and due to its boxy shape felt uncomfortable in bubbly water. The high volume ends and the high sides will keep it dry though.

[philcanoe]

in the case of the Grand Canyon, it’s important to remember that there’s ten miles of flat water for every mile of white….so length is a real consideration, as hull speed and efficiency are really important… of course the water moves rather quickly, so it’s easy to makes miles…there’s also great play waves, and without good hull speed you’ll miss a bunch of the better ones … hull speed is probably one of the best attributes of a Whitesell…if there’s a head wind, the shorter the boat - the more it would suck…… I remember doing a lot of ferrying (all three kinds), especially a whole bunch of back ferrying (while pointed downstream) , again hull speed helps here

these days I’d prefer something a little more maneuverable than a Whitesell, with some edge to help hold ferry angles and carve on waves, that‘s my preferred style… of course those who favor a more rounded bottom, would not…again that’s your prerogative - for me a Edge would most likely be the boat of choice being 13‘2“ or 4meter (of course most others would not…) as I remember doing more head-on surfing , than side-surfing…of course there was that big-ole-hole at the top of Crystal (that was a very good place to be in a Whitesell)… don't really think I'd like it in a S.Fly

the other thing I remember is being a bit apprehensive…back in early eighty’s the Grand Canyon - oh my, God…but then I saw the dories, and my Whitesell was LONGER than they were … calmed the nerves quite a bit

my point is not to suggest a particular boat… it’s more about listing some things to consider…as for the Paradigm, never have been in one..

[sbroam]

When I first saw this topic I read that as "little p" paradigm and started thinking along the lines of "dense boat theory" and "wave blocking" and ...