Proposed ICF rule changes

[John Coraor]

KNeal:

If you want to sign up, check out the 2008 Race schedule that Davey Hearn maintains at www.daveyhearn.com . However, please note that often the smaller local and regional races for beginner and intermediate racers either don't make it onto this list or make it on only immediately before their respective race occurs. This isn't due to a lack of willingness on the part of Davey and Jennifer Hearn to include these races, but they can't post races that they don't know about or who don't send them info in advance.

Consequently, you should also ask around in your neck of the woods, among racers if you can find them, and other WW paddlers and paddling clubs to see if there are any local races not posted on Davey's web site.

Have fun!

John

[KNeal]

Thanks, John. I've looked through these calendars and see that the closest races are 4.5-8 hours driving distance from me. That's REAL hard for any recreational racer to make. The closest slalom course(s) are the ones maintained by BCE and I don't see when they have races (slalom) other than for the "elite" category. We have decent rapids for hosting races (downriver and slalom) in Richmond, but there is very little interest in racing from the local boating community. In case you are wondering, we even put together a race club that did not sustain.

KNeal

[Alden]

"Hey, I'm with you though. I think that the ends of a canoe should still have to be higher than the center. I was pretty bummed when they made that change back in the 1970s."

I'm still thinking of breaking out the Hahn for the Nationals this summer. You know what they say:

"When you're an hour behind, that's TARDY. When you're an era behind, that's CLASSIC."

Alden

[Trevor]

alden...a hahn at nationals...that would be awesome. you'll have to bust out some 1970's gear to match...a seda lifejacket..or was that 80's?

chris and i have always talked about the idea of having vintage era races...like a 80's race with only 80's boats, etc....old rules, longer courses, boats.

or just have like a tribute to slaloms history, and run down some veterans in era appropriate gear, boats,etc. but sadly i imagine it might be hard to find the old boats...heck, it might even create some kind of market for the old designs again, if the molds still exist.

single pole slalom proposal: i guess i got off subject with my previous rantings. but im not so sure about the single pole gate idea.


cons:
1. seems like it will totally change upstream technique, and the skill of controlling your bow
2. will it honestly be any easier for spectators to understand. i assume you'd have to have two colors for going left or right of a pole (like blue and red), but wouldnt you need a 3rd color for upstreams? because approaching you would be on one side, exiting the other.
3. we all know someone who has gone through a flush gate the wrong direction. wouldnt all the downs just be one big jumble of flush gates
4. imagine yourself in the start gate looking down stream...wouldnt your visual perspective of which pole is closer, etc, get totally confusing? imagine a series tight offsets...dont start the first one on the wrong side...
5. i can hear it now...."so which direction do they go around the blue poles? are the green poles left and the red poles right, i dont understand...so be sure to include the secret color decoder ring for the tv audience. sounds like more confusion to me!
6. novice gate judges might just forget themselves which side is which, and totally blow a call...
7. i think the extra pole clarifies the slalom line better especially in offsets.
8. its just one pole away from no poles at all...which is a bad idea!!
9. you dont see baseball going to 3 plates anytime soon, or basketball 1 basket. just a bad idea for the sport and its tradition.


pros:
1. im sure the c-2's could get closer to the kayaks with one pole...less penalties and more room for the sternman to slide out.
2. less pvc, and spray paint means a greener sport, right
3. probably easier for a gate judge to just watch one pole instead of two.

later

[knu2xs]

"Hey, I'm with you though. I think that the ends of a canoe should still have to be higher than the center. I was pretty bummed when they made that change back in the 1970s."

I'm still thinking of breaking out the Hahn for the Nationals this summer. You know what they say:

"When you're an hour behind, that's TARDY. When you're an era behind, that's CLASSIC."

Alden

Alden-

How can you remember the good ol' days of the 70's when you weren't even born until the 80's?

[Trevor]

i assume alden was just being sarcastic about the ends being higher, or is he a reincarnated 70's racer?

here's an idea. you guys ever watch the european or american LeMan car race series. 24 hour of LeMan? they have about 4 or 5 classes of cars all on the track at the same time. P1, P2, GT3, GT2, GT1...(i think ive got that right, if not dave miller will correct me) with overall winner, and seperate class winners.

maybe U.S. national could mimick this, and have 70's, 80's, 90's, and 00's boats competing all for nationals, but also for top spots in their own category. for example if you were man enough, and wanted to take the chance, you could win the overall nationals in a 1992 fanatic, and also win the 90's boat class competition.

obviously anyone serious about their chances of winning nationals will probably choose a new short boat. but that would leave seperate competitions for c/d ranked boaters that might want to win the 80's class, etc. it might get some older racers or "retired" racers involved, with less pressure and more reason to train up, etc. i guess bob bofinger would have won the c-1 80's class last year in his long "stealth" C-1 (or was that a 1990 boat?),

(maybe each year, you would only have one seperate competition for a select decade...this year might be 80's boats...next year 90's, etc...so you can fill all the classes.

maybe davey would train up for fun and race his superglide, etc.

that or ditch the seperate age group nationals, and combine that with the U.S. nationals. junior, 30-40, 40-50, 50-60....etc...this might keep some boaters from totally dropping out of racing after age 29. it might even create a new market for old boats, and perserve a bit of slaloms history.

or just contine u.s. nationals as team trials day 4.

maybe silly ideas....but it could be fun...

trevor

[knu2xs]

The idea to make Nationals a combined event is one I have heard more than once in the last few years. The best idea I've yet heard was to have the age group races take place on Saturday, have it be a lower-key, not as hard course fostering participation and friendly competition. This could be a much larger participation event. Then, on Sunday, contest the open class Nationals on a harder course for the overall National Championships.

[Alden]

I like it. A combined Nationals. Sounds like it would be a fun, low-key time. "Friendly competition." Reminds me of the time I ran a sub-four minute "quarter" during a track meet . . . They had no idea I was still out there . . . But nobody cared . . . Those were the days . . .

[C1Dub]

Age Group Nationals (which used to be called Junior, Senior Masters Nationals back in the dark ages) used to be combined all the time with Nationals. One day of each. I used to drive my brother and his C2 partner to these events. I would race the second day and they got to race both days. If you were 18 or less or older than 29 you could race both days. Attendance was pretty large. Around about the same time or right before the event was renamed Age Group Nationals, the 2 events were split from each other (early 90's?). Not sure what the reasoning behind the split was.

In any case we can come up with great ideas and make all the suggestions we want but ultimately someone needs to convince USACK of the value of the changes. Good luck with that! I know people have tried before to convince USACK of the concept of the slalom pyramid with no luck. Until USACK realizes the value of supporting the entire slalom community and not just the elite athletes and provides opportunities to maintain interest in the sport, our sport will continue to decline. (maybe us old farts and other weekend racers should combine and start a new organization).

My 2 cents,

Natalie

Support your local slalom race!

[bearboater]

trevor,
yeah, I was hit by a raft whilst training at usnwc, and had to get surgery, so I am finally now back in a boat, and starting training again. I am almost through with my physical therapy, and ready for real paddling...
how is everything with you? are you and chris coming to nats this year?
-isaac

[unkltwisto]

Isaac,

Dude! Im sorry to hear that! - when a fleet of rafts are on the water at Charlotte - that place goes from class III-IV to class V+ hair boatin! Im glad your recovery is going well.

I havent decided about natls yet - Ive been working all winter and just recently got back in the boat - we'll see...

Joel,
Sounds like a great idea to get back to the combined natls event and have an "open" class during AGN for those 18-29 so it becomes a 2 day event for all

Natalie,
I also really appreciate that you guys have scheduled the riversport slalom for the weekend before natls this year - thats a fantastic idea - we need more creative planning like this to increase participation...

Chris Soileau

[John Coraor]

Alden: I have an original Charlie Walbridge Hi-Float Lifevest that you can borrow - appropriately faded and worn - as well as a Norse paddle.

I know us curmudgeonly old school racers can be pretty pathetic at times, but I don't think we're begrudging changes in boat design or even most of the rules changes that ICF has introduced over the years. I wish I had the funds to buy even a used Loco - one of the few short boats into which I have a chance of squeezing my overweight bod.

However, we certainly are grumbling about changes that threaten the base of the pyramid. For those at USACK or elsewhere who don't believe in a pyramid or don't care about the base, I'll borrow Ed's analogy - if having a solid broad base to the pyramid isn't important in producing elite competitors at the apex, then why doesn't the U.S. have ski jumpers that can compete with the Finns, Swedes, Norwegians, and the Japanese?

John

[Alden]

John,

Let me see if I can respond:

John wrote:
"I suspect that what Jim, I, and perhaps others are grumbling about is more about the gradual and continuing loss of these intermediate levels of the sport than whether or not the rules changes are good for the elite racer."

I agree that it's bad to have dwindling numbers at intermediate or novice races. I was fairly shocked when Jacobi told me his theory of top-only development. It seems quite obviously shortsighted. And I agree that the lower levels of the sport right now are definitely not doing well.

"Elite slalom has become professional, albeit without the compensation, and, as a result, the lower levels of slalom appear to be heading toward becoming about as prevalent as intermediate ski-jumping.

However, I'm not sure that just because the elite levels become more professional therefore the lower levels dwindle. I guess I'd throw Europe back at everyone: haven't they always been more professional at the top, and yet seemed to have scores of new paddlers waiting in the wings? Doesn't everyone always talk about the health of slalom in Europe?

So I think it depends on what type of "lower levels" you're talking about. I've always felt like there was a big difference between kids who are paddlers at the lower levels, and the so-called "weekend paddlers" who are older racers.

And I always picture a difference between the type of American system that John invoked from the early 1980s and the system I picture in some European coutnries.

The first system, which many people, including myself, would love to see is a populist tradition in which a healthy series of intermediate races all across the different regions are held on intermediate, natural rivers (like the ones John mentioned from the 1980s) and prominently involve "weekend paddlers" (not just kids) and are not dependent on people from other regions traveling far. I think of Amy Hunt complaining that Snyder's Mill died out because people from DC no longer made the nine hour drive! Either way, that's one system.

The other system is what I envision in Europe. It's a sort of state-sponsored program centered around a single artificial training course (Nottingham, Augsburg, Liptovsky, Tacen) where flows are constant and year-round, a program which seems to aggressively target only younger paddlers, which is what I envision when thinking of Europe.

Yet I think that the second system, while good for producing top racers, is not necessarily good for producing the type of weekend paddlers mentioned in the first system. And I'm just not sure how much can be done by USACK or any other body in promoting the first system and the "weekend racer" in the context of the Olympic movement.

On the other hand, I wonder if there ever was in fact a large body of intermediate or advanced racers. Weren't all those races you mentioned (T-Ville, Tohickon, etc) just populated by the National Team contenders? I wouldn't call myself an elite racer. 20 years ago I'd have been doing all those races you mentioned, John. But this year I raced three times on Charlotte alone and went down there several other times just to train, rather than, for example, racing up at the Mascoma or Punch Brook. There's an emphasis on learning specific courses. So 20 years ago, was there really a larger base at the intermediate and advanced levels, or was it just guys like me at those races who are now drawn evermore inward to the elite "clique?" In 1985 you could have Leck Haller, Jamie McEwan, Doug Gordon and Cathy Hearn living up on the Housy. Now? No way. And during the winter like they used to do? Now top racers are always going away to Penrith for the winter.

I do think that the notion of slalom becoming a "winter" sport is an interesting account of a lack of popularity. One just needs to look at the numbers Trevor displayed to see that the Nationals are nearly always more popular (at least with canoes) than Team Trials.

Life is free and easy in the summer, and people like boating then, and they aren't beset with exciting creeks to run because the water is too low. Why aren't there races on the Deerfield or T-Ville in the summer, again?

So too I think that the idea that our best racers go away to Europe for the summer and aren't seen by us can't be very good either. I find it a little touching to hear how people wish they saw the very best US racers at local races, and to hear how people recount their stories of finding themselves alongside Jon Lugbill on shore. But -- there's something to that.

Either way, in talking about how much effect rules have, I'm starting to think that you guys are right about the better of two runs being more inspiring for newcomers or old-timers. I'll be interested to see that single variable tested (if that's possible) in watching to see if the NESS starts gaining back momentum with the old rules back in place.

Alden

[John Coraor]

Thanks Alden for your thorough response!

Europe and the US have always had differences in the amount of state-supported vs. grass roots competition. Other than the political reasons for that difference, keep in mind that travelling within a single European nation to get to a state-supported training site is a good bit easier and quicker than racers from say the northeastern US or the midwest driving to Charlotte periodically to do some training. Distances in the US are just an order of magnitude larger than in European nations.

Consequently, the more "professional," state-supported European system (which BTW does typically include club-led training opportunities at the beginner & intermediate levels) can more readily "capture" and serve paddlers at the lower levels of the sport, merely by virtue of the greater concentration of the nation's population within proximity of the training/racing facilities, clubs, support system, etc.

I agree with your assessment that elite US racers, or those that aspire in that direction, are gravitating more toward training/racing on selected artifical courses and/or heading out of the country in the winter to train at Penrith or other distant locations. Almost by definition, the base of the pyramid is NOT going to make this kind of commitment (at least not until they aspire to move up the pyramid).

How many parents of 12-14 year-old racers are going to move to Charlotte to allow their aspiring racer the opportunity to train more regularly? Perhaps even more importantly, how is that 12-14 year paddler who might potentially be interested in slalom ever going to get excited enough about it to want to train and race regularly? I would be willing to bet that almost every elite racer in the US was introduced to slalom through some kind of meaningful encounter with a veteran racer at some critical point in their paddling career. If elite racers only train at selected elite facilities like Charlotte, how are those encounters critical for recruiting the next generation of racers every going to take place?

At this point in time about the only significant introduction of cadets and juniors into the sport is occuring at a handful of locations where an older veteran racer (or racers) have established a modest training facility and voluntarily committed to recruiting and training interested paddlers (NOC, Bellefonte, Feeder Canal & Dickerson, Golden CO, Wausau, San Marco TX). I'm thankful that we have such training centers, but they are all too few and the regional beginner and intermediate races that provide important additional training experiences for these centers are dying. Us geezer racers are typically the people who organize these local and regional races and, as you indicate, the sport doesn't appear to be interested in us anymore, and, as a consequence, events that are also points of entry for younger racers are disappearing.

If we were as small as Switzerland and everyone was just a short train ride from Charlotte or other elite facilities, it might not matter as much. But we're not, and it does.

John

[Trevor]

isaac, man that stinks, but glad your recovering is coming along...im surprised more people havent been hurt at charlotte...
have you guys ever looked at that point , half way up, on the conveyor belt(s), where two conveyor belts meet!! next time you are there imagine a kid, not paying attention, getting hand, arm and paddle caught in that sucker...boat goin up, hand goin down...scarry stuff!! they need a bigger warning sign there, not to mention somekind of kill switch....yikes!

very interesting ideas above...i must say a combo national, with an easier course on the first day, might be a great warmup race to nationals too.

i think alden is right, slalom is getting so course specific, that its no longer possible to train on your local river, and expect to compete very well at say the charlotte course...you'd have to had run down the final drop, as i like to call "final dissapointment", alot to even expect to complete a run.

my biggest gripe with the design of charlotte, is that its not well suited for creating comraderie on the river...the reason most of us got drawn into paddling, wasnt the whitewater alone, but the river community, eddy community, play spot community...when you are on charlotte, it just you and the river...no real community. infact the harsh walls, and river edge doesnt even allow for human interactivity...in my opinion, it just poor human interactive architecture...the river community and comraderie that exist on the feeder canal, is like a paris city street, with park benches and fountains...the charlotte course is more like a walmart parking lot in the middle of the summer, you dont see people saying "lets go hang out there"....from my 5 years of architecture classes i'd make this suggestion, try designing your model with scale figures!! 14' 45 degree concrete walls...now thats perfect for the human being....if you're tony hawk!! ok ill get off my soap box...somethings are nicely done at charlotte, but the important things, like the river edge, seem to come up short, and lack thought...how bout planting some white oaks around the course...nice shade for future generations..

i think slalom gate course designs are getting to be more work than fun anymore.. probably in the effort to challenge the top kayaks, the flow of most courses is just awkward work...not as free flowing as the lines you might do for fun on the river...that or im just not in shape enough to enjoy it.

i would love to take a annoymous poll, with the question, "is the charlotte course that appealling, and fun to paddle"? i bet most racers at olympic trials this year, would probably rather be paddling somewhere else, if honest...i bet most would probably tell you the only reason they are there to paddle on the course is either: A) It’s a major concrete obstacle in the way of my Olympic dream, B) my coach is there, and what will my friends think if I quit, C) I guess I can either quit racing or as Andy Taylor once told Barney Fife on the ‘Andy Griffith Show’, concerning Aunt Bea’s horrible tasting homemade pickles (aka. “kerosene cucumbers”),….”well, I guess there’s only one thing we can do Barn…...learn to love ‘em.” (…..chomp….chomp.) My guess is everyday before, or at least until after the 2008 Olympic trials, there were alot of Andy Taylors and Barney Fifes running down the competition channels last dropmuttering, “learn to love it.”

i guess gone are the days of training on the ocoee, potomac, etc and easily transferring those learned skills to a artificial channel.

i dont want to totally bash the charlotte course, ive had a little fun on the wilderness channel side in places, but the harsh and high vertical walls, and isolation feeling on the competition channel, is just not very appealing. wooden barn doors?...whats that? to resemble a flooded out creek after a tornadoes aftermath!!! i dont get it...i honestly think i would be living in charlotte now, if the asci course, or something similar was there in its place. sheer design may be charlottes achilles heel.

you guys have run it more than i, am i off?, or is it honestly fun to you guys. i'd rather be on the waterworks at the hooch, or playing on the ocoee, or potomac....maybe im just getting too old...flyfishing anyone?

ill step of my soap box now!