Torso Strokes

[fleckbass]

What are the thoughts on torso strokes? In an OC-1, C-1, long, short boats. Since I've got my Viper my forward stoke has to stay in front of the body to get any speed out of the boat. Seems like I am arm paddling more than anything. This could be due to an improper J stroke?

[sbroam]

That's about right - in front of your knees even, not unlike what our slalom brethren are used to. Rotate and reach, extend those arms. Check out this :

http://cboats.net/technique/

Try not bending your elbows at all - not realistic in the wild maybe, but demonstrates that it is not all about arms, or even mostly.

Really short boat? (Not your Viper) You can't reach as far or you start to bob - shorter, quicker, but still not coming past your hip.

Zoom, zoom! Speed, acceleration - good stuff.

[Nate]

In order to get the extension for strokes that lock into your stronger abdominal muscles you need torso rotation as well.

There are a few tricks to achieving the muscle memory you need in order to perform effective and efficient strokes in whitewater.
1) Try paddling on your onside in flatwater with both of your arms locked out in front of you. It will make you lean forward slightly and rotate your torso correctly.
2) Imagine that you are planting your paddle out in front of you into a block of concrete and then pulling the boat TO the paddle rather than the paddle to the boat. This exercise should help you thrust/slide your hips forward with each stroke.

If you really want to work on technique you should come to the Riversport slalom race this coming weekend. It is on Ramcat Rapid on the Middle Yough (easy, but they will set gates). There is a clinic Sat. afternoon where I'm sure you could get some hands-on help/instruction.

Nate

[John Coraor]

In C-1 you typically don't want your forward stroke going any further back than your hip. Often a J-stroke becomes just a quick flick right at the hip in order to keep on track.

For a couple different perspectives on forward stroke technique try the following links:

http://cboats.net/technique/

http://www.daveyhearn.com/Coaching/Tech ... ter.htm#Ba

I'm old school and learned the technique described by Davey Hearn, which involves rotation of the upper torso to yield greater extension prior to the catch and to better utilize the latissimus dorsi (back) muscles rather than just the arms. However, Emmanuel Brugvin describes a somewhat different and more recent technique in the first link to an article translated by Jamie McEwan. However, either technique should result in use of muscles in the torso to augment your arms.

John

[ezwater]

One problem is, people look at a video of someone showing "correct" torso rotation such as Bob Foote on "Drill Time," and the exaggerated rotation shown in the video gives a misleading idea of truly efficient rotation.

I use a rather short forward stroke, and often don't need to J because I am tall and am essentially pulling the boat forward by the bow. I can feel the torso rotation with each stroke, and it is doing much more than my long, skinny arms, but from the bank you would have to look really hard to see the rotation. In a short, efficient stroke taken "cab-forward," one should not expect to see marked and obvious torso rotation.

And actually, that is a good thing. There are internal frictional losses in exaggerated torso rotation. Usually it should be short, hard and efficient.

[oopsiflipped]

I don't know much about it, otherwsie i wouldn't have to keep asking questions on the internet....but short strokes seem most efficient. If your abs don't hurt when you get done your either in better shape than i am or not paddling right. My abs are still sore from surfing this weekend.

[Jim Lyon]

Very timely topic for me. I have been struggling to improve my forward stroke all season after adopting an "up front" paddling style. I spent some time last night analyzing the rotation in the "Drill Time" and "Tom Foster" videos. Tom Foster talks about leaning forward slightly while in "Drill Time" they have a sit up straight approach. Foster wants both arms (almost) locked and "Drill time" clearly shows the control arm (top arm) bent quit a bit (depending on who is demonstrating at the time). Someone pointed out to me that leaning forward (even slightly) reduces the amount of rotation you can get. I have tried this and I can get more rotation from sitting up straight and bending my top arm (like is shown in Drill Time). I also studied the C1 info contained on this site and they seem to stress lean and not rotation along with weight balance. I have been working on this all season without much progress except that I understand the problem much better than I did before. I find that the vast majority of paddlers don't know what I am talking about when I ask for help on this problem. I have found only one person that I paddle with that has helped me and understands what's involved in a good forward stroke. Needless to say I am very frustrated by my inability to master this. I wish there was some local instruction I could take because I think I am doing nothing but practicing my mistakes. Misery loves company and I am glad to hear that others are struggling with this.

[Bob P]

I've spent the last year and a half working toward the forward stroke described in Jamie's article...

YouTube Video

While Tom Foster's straight-lower-arm technique looks good in theory, it loses too much by ignoring the energy available in the arm pull and forces an exaggerated J.

[ezwater]

Bob P, you notice that, in the video, his boat turns TOWARD the paddle side AFTER he extracts the paddle! That makes it clear that whatever his J is doing, it is not the main mechanism in controlling direction.

I have noticed this with my boats. What happens is that, with a firm, well-forward stroke, the boat's bow shoves up a little wave on the opposite side, and after one extracts the blade, that little mound of water pushes the bow of the boat back so that it tracks rather than spinning. Works on all my boats.

Another issue we need to discuss is forward/aft movement of the torso. We're supposed to be getting forward energy from a short, compact twisting of the torso. The role of pulling the torso back toward the stern is more controversial. Movement of the torso causes a weight shift that is unfavorable, because during the power portion of the stroke, the torso is moving back, while during recovery the torso moves forward and "checks" the motion of the hull. It seems to me that it is important to NOT throw the torso back and forth except for one-stroke convulsive efforts to get the boat upstream. However, I suppose that with many other things (arm bend, torso twist), a modest amount of "horsing" the torso back and forth must be effective. I strive to minimize it.

[oopsiflipped]

I could be wrong, but in order to have an efficient forward, the boat needs to be carving. If the boat is carving on the side you are paddling on, then you can 'go straight' or in an 'infinite circle.' If you're not carving you can't paddle straight. Yes? No?

Taking a combination of the advice I've gotten on here, I think I paddled 'correctly' for the first 30 minutes or so of my first session on saturday, hitting about 80% of my stokes with a strong plant and using my gut and my pelvis to move the boat and not the paddle.

Following Joel's advice, I really concentrated on not moving my paddle. I'm not desperate enough to practice in flatwater yet (against much advice) but hopefully eddies count. Hard to do for long. Maybe this will be the year I finally train a bit for boating...

[Jim Lyon]

From reading all the posts in this thread so far ezwater seems to describe what I am striving for. I intellectually understand the concepts but can't seem to perform them on a consistent basis. Do you (ezwater) have any practice techniques that helped you develop your stroke? The next problem for me will be a proper recovery but that is another topic.

[Nate]

Oopsiflipped,
What you said about having paddled correctly in the beginning of your session then deteriorating sounds correct. Paddling with really efficient technique and strong strokes will wear you out quickly when you first make the switch to that style. The strokes are tapping into different muscles than you are used to using and they need to be built up. Once you are used to it though, paddling with your abdominal/torso muscles is unquestionably more efficient than "arm paddling." It just takes some getting used to.

I would tend to pay more attention to Tom Foster's new video than drill time, but that is personal preference. I think Tom illustrates his points very clearly and accurately.

Jim, next time you're out with Harold ask him to talk to you about all of this. He is good at verbalizing the way he paddles and I have learned an immeasurable amount by being around him.


One important point to remember about all of this information that is being thrown at you is that most of it is only a basic set of guidelines. Ultimately each person is going to have to adapt their paddling style to what works for them. Instructors and other people can tell you what works for them, but nothing works for everyone. Tip/trick sharing is always useful and appreciated, but the more time you spend in the boat the faster you will be able to apply these tidbits of information and compile them into a paddling style that suits your needs and physical abilities.

Nate

[Bob P]

...
Another issue we need to discuss is forward/aft movement of the torso. We're supposed to be getting forward energy from a short, compact twisting of the torso. The role of pulling the torso back toward the stern is more controversial. Movement of the torso causes a weight shift that is unfavorable, because during the power portion of the stroke, the torso is moving back, while during recovery the torso moves forward and "checks" the motion of the hull. It seems to me that it is important to NOT throw the torso back and forth except for one-stroke convulsive efforts to get the boat upstream. However, I suppose that with many other things (arm bend, torso twist), a modest amount of "horsing" the torso back and forth must be effective. I strive to minimize it.

You have to stop thinking about the boat so much. For forward speed, think in terms of the reaction of your body pulling on a paddle that's in something really viscous. Your boat just comes along for the ride. That's why it's important to get your entire blade into "solid" water.

[ezwater]

Well, I'm far from convinced that that's true. But I don't have any way to prove otherwise.

[Kelly-Rand]

I like this topic, and yes I practice extensively on flat water. The way you paddle depends on what you are doing. So in my Viper C1 (11'-6") which is a good cruising boat, when I am cruising I tend to do torso strokes that are quite full in the Foster tradition. When I am trying to attain from a standing stop or when I do sprints I do more of the abbreviated torso rotation and short paddle stroke that involves pulling the pelvis forward with every plant. The trick for efficient movement with the latter approach is to use the knees to prevent the boat from rocking fore to aft.

I've been called to dinner, so I'll have to continue later, unless someone else follows up.