Torso Strokes
Moderators: kenneth, sbroam, TheKrikkitWars, Mike W., Sir Adam, KNeal, PAC, adamin
I have found that learning one method at a time helps quite a bit. Watching the two,(or more ) videos,then going out to practice can just confuse you. Learn and practice one method before moveing on to another method. Afterwards you can combine diferent elements to suit your own style. IMO Tom Foster's boat continues to carve because of boat lean, not whats being done with the paddle
I agree w/ Kelly, depends what your doing.
You want fast acceleration to obtain a wave, use short strokes.
Vertical shaft. and I mean frickin vertical! You want that blade to be under the middle of your canoe( ideally). That means exagerating the upper hand on your t-grip "outboard" of the gunwale.
Your power stroke ,with this technique should only be as long as your torso can rotate. Rotate torso, plant blade where it enters water vertically. Go into "rudder" at your hip. Reason being, the power stroke is most effective when the blade is vertical, reach to far and you are pushing water down, come back to far and you are pushing water up. bow to stern is the goal.
The more vertical the shaft, the less correction, or J stroke, maximizing forward thrust.
Trust me when I say, if you haven't mastered this, your hand is inboard of the boat, get that upper hand out over the H20.
Also, hesitate slightly on the correction, little more time ruddering = less work in the long run. Sloppy strokes tend to build up.
Oh, long strokes good for holes and carving
You want fast acceleration to obtain a wave, use short strokes.
Vertical shaft. and I mean frickin vertical! You want that blade to be under the middle of your canoe( ideally). That means exagerating the upper hand on your t-grip "outboard" of the gunwale.
Your power stroke ,with this technique should only be as long as your torso can rotate. Rotate torso, plant blade where it enters water vertically. Go into "rudder" at your hip. Reason being, the power stroke is most effective when the blade is vertical, reach to far and you are pushing water down, come back to far and you are pushing water up. bow to stern is the goal.
The more vertical the shaft, the less correction, or J stroke, maximizing forward thrust.
Trust me when I say, if you haven't mastered this, your hand is inboard of the boat, get that upper hand out over the H20.
Also, hesitate slightly on the correction, little more time ruddering = less work in the long run. Sloppy strokes tend to build up.
Oh, long strokes good for holes and carving
"Don't Panic"
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Great discussion here!
I'm not so good at torso paddling yet. But I finally got the catch of it. It has been an evolution, watching drill time, paddling, thinking, ... .
The first thing was, ok, wind up that torso and rotate it. It makes sence, gives you a performance gain.
Second thing was, "thrust your hips forward" and really, use your back and ventral muscles. It is not "easy" and it's tyring in the beginning.
I know now better how to do it,and if I focus on flat water, I can do it. On whitewater it's harder, I still use too much arms and too few torso. But sooner or later I'll get a grip on that one too.
How to use torso in cross-bow strokes I still have to figure out, but one way or another my cross strokes still suck.
There is one thing that really helped me out: video! Really, have someone video you, flatwater, whitewater, but video it. Learn to critic yourself (and others
). On video you see what YOU do wrong, you can draw your own conclusions and find the points to work on.
I've read some people believe Kent Ford's dvd's are not the best around. Might be, I just ordered the Tom Foster dvd and book, so I cannot compare yet. But for me, watching the dvd's and reading the book of Kent Ford really keeps me thinking about my paddling. By the next time I hit the water, I found something new to focus on.
But most importantly, it's an evolution, so it won't come at once. And you have to be working actively and consciously on it.
my 0.01$
I'm not so good at torso paddling yet. But I finally got the catch of it. It has been an evolution, watching drill time, paddling, thinking, ... .
The first thing was, ok, wind up that torso and rotate it. It makes sence, gives you a performance gain.
Second thing was, "thrust your hips forward" and really, use your back and ventral muscles. It is not "easy" and it's tyring in the beginning.
I know now better how to do it,and if I focus on flat water, I can do it. On whitewater it's harder, I still use too much arms and too few torso. But sooner or later I'll get a grip on that one too.
How to use torso in cross-bow strokes I still have to figure out, but one way or another my cross strokes still suck.
There is one thing that really helped me out: video! Really, have someone video you, flatwater, whitewater, but video it. Learn to critic yourself (and others
). On video you see what YOU do wrong, you can draw your own conclusions and find the points to work on.I've read some people believe Kent Ford's dvd's are not the best around. Might be, I just ordered the Tom Foster dvd and book, so I cannot compare yet. But for me, watching the dvd's and reading the book of Kent Ford really keeps me thinking about my paddling. By the next time I hit the water, I found something new to focus on.
But most importantly, it's an evolution, so it won't come at once. And you have to be working actively and consciously on it.
my 0.01$
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oopsiflipped
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I pretty much learned how to paddle a canoe watching the Tom Foster DVD. I've since paddled with a few other cboaters and wathced Kent Ford. Mostly I've just paddled alot and tried to build on the instructional footage and what I've learned on here.
I like Foster for learning how to paddle a big open boat in class II. I think it has some good fundamentals, but doesn't really cover paddling harder water or apply to 'modern' c1ing completely.
I have the c1 challenge, too. It is very short, but has some good info. The section on outfitting where he is wearing running shorts should definitely be edited out!
Sounds like it is time for a new instructional video!
Not instrcutional, but the Green River Orthopedic Project that comes with the Race Movie and is also on you tube show a really good c1er running the green with good camera work.
I like Foster for learning how to paddle a big open boat in class II. I think it has some good fundamentals, but doesn't really cover paddling harder water or apply to 'modern' c1ing completely.
I have the c1 challenge, too. It is very short, but has some good info. The section on outfitting where he is wearing running shorts should definitely be edited out!
Sounds like it is time for a new instructional video!
Not instrcutional, but the Green River Orthopedic Project that comes with the Race Movie and is also on you tube show a really good c1er running the green with good camera work.
Jim Lyon--- I arrived at my stroke style by dumb luck and survival of the fittest technique, for me. I have an unusually long torso, and while that was an advantage when I was rowing and sculling, if I start to horse forward and back to move the canoe, it just makes the boat bob and wears my back out.
After looking at the youtube video a couple of times, what he is doing is not much different from what I am doing. He is not horsing his torso back and forth very much, and a shorter guy can do that more efficiently. He is using just a modest amount of torso rotation. Now, I find I usually do not have to "c" the front end of the stroke, and I often don't have to "j" at the end of the stroke. I "c" or "j" when I need to because the boat is veering.
For a tall person like me, it is fairly easy to develop a great reach and a good, firm catch. But anyone of any size can do it, they just might not be able to pull the boat forward by the bow the way a tall paddler can. Maybe that's why the guy in the video is using a bit of "c" and a bit of "J" more consistently than I do.
I never have been a really fast paddler, but I've become very efficient, and I fight the boat much less.
After looking at the youtube video a couple of times, what he is doing is not much different from what I am doing. He is not horsing his torso back and forth very much, and a shorter guy can do that more efficiently. He is using just a modest amount of torso rotation. Now, I find I usually do not have to "c" the front end of the stroke, and I often don't have to "j" at the end of the stroke. I "c" or "j" when I need to because the boat is veering.
For a tall person like me, it is fairly easy to develop a great reach and a good, firm catch. But anyone of any size can do it, they just might not be able to pull the boat forward by the bow the way a tall paddler can. Maybe that's why the guy in the video is using a bit of "c" and a bit of "J" more consistently than I do.
I never have been a really fast paddler, but I've become very efficient, and I fight the boat much less.
ezwater --- Thanks for the info. I have found your comments and those of all the others responding to this thread very useful and informative. I just got back for a practice session on the lake and feel I have made some progress. I have also found that the ease of making this all happen is somewhat boat dependent. Today I paddled my Inferno and it seemed to make it easy. I was practicing with a Reaktor and a Zoom and they are more difficult for me to paddle correctly. I have a Spark which is my "go to" boat and works well but is not quite as easy to paddle as the Inferno. I am going to stick with the Inferno for a while to get my form down and see how it transfers to the others.
Great discussion. I may not be an authority on proper stroke, but I do know a lot about motor learning, that is- how we learn new movements and refine those movements (sometimes referred to as muscle memory). In addition to the many great points made here, please consider:
Practice is the MOST powerful influence we have on motor learning. The more you practice, the greater your learning.
Many good paddlers told me to train on flatwater… and it was many years before I took that advice. I now recommend overtraining on flatwater so that strong learning is achieved. If the stroke is not LEARNED you will revert back to weaker strokes and bracing when you are in a threatening rapid. Watch the great paddlers- they do not change their stroke in difficult water. (That is not to say that I recommend a consistent stroke rate or placement, that is another issue and I recommend reading some things Jamie McEwan has written about that.)
Train in a responsive boat and listen to your body- your arms, your knees, your vision, etc. This will allow you to find the best technique for your body style. Jim mentioned he has a Spark- I recommend training in that because you will feel what every one of your reactions does to the boat (my favorites for training are a Spark and a Slasher).
In addition to training on flatwater make sure you train with attainments. If you want feedback on which strokes are working and which are not, just let the river tell you.
Some guys time themselves as they practice different moves or courses. Another way to check yourself is to count your strokes as you do attainments and find out what allows you to shave off strokes.
Several years ago someone on CBoats asked Kaz a question about this and it is worth looking up his response. My recollection is that part of his message was to feel the boat and sense your body so that you find your optimal movements… he recommended drills such as paddling with your eyes closed (yup- that is another one I do, on flatwater). What I have learned is that even the great paddlers spend a lot of time analyzing and improving their stroke, that is part of the fun with our dam sport!
Final recommendation- take up slalom racing. It will force your development. It is also a great way to learn from others. I have watched paddlers like Kaz and Mike Campbell and Sam Montague and Jeanette Fischer pull moves that I NEVER though were possible. Then I got stubborn and said “if they can do it I should to” and eventually I got better. Not in their class, but I am making progress in the right direction.
Have fun out there!
Practice is the MOST powerful influence we have on motor learning. The more you practice, the greater your learning.
Many good paddlers told me to train on flatwater… and it was many years before I took that advice. I now recommend overtraining on flatwater so that strong learning is achieved. If the stroke is not LEARNED you will revert back to weaker strokes and bracing when you are in a threatening rapid. Watch the great paddlers- they do not change their stroke in difficult water. (That is not to say that I recommend a consistent stroke rate or placement, that is another issue and I recommend reading some things Jamie McEwan has written about that.)
Train in a responsive boat and listen to your body- your arms, your knees, your vision, etc. This will allow you to find the best technique for your body style. Jim mentioned he has a Spark- I recommend training in that because you will feel what every one of your reactions does to the boat (my favorites for training are a Spark and a Slasher).
In addition to training on flatwater make sure you train with attainments. If you want feedback on which strokes are working and which are not, just let the river tell you.
Some guys time themselves as they practice different moves or courses. Another way to check yourself is to count your strokes as you do attainments and find out what allows you to shave off strokes.
Several years ago someone on CBoats asked Kaz a question about this and it is worth looking up his response. My recollection is that part of his message was to feel the boat and sense your body so that you find your optimal movements… he recommended drills such as paddling with your eyes closed (yup- that is another one I do, on flatwater). What I have learned is that even the great paddlers spend a lot of time analyzing and improving their stroke, that is part of the fun with our dam sport!
Final recommendation- take up slalom racing. It will force your development. It is also a great way to learn from others. I have watched paddlers like Kaz and Mike Campbell and Sam Montague and Jeanette Fischer pull moves that I NEVER though were possible. Then I got stubborn and said “if they can do it I should to” and eventually I got better. Not in their class, but I am making progress in the right direction.
Have fun out there!
Jim
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sbroam
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One more thought :
Don't just watch instructional video, get video taken of you - it never looks like you think it does. If you don't have a mentor/coach/model and are surrounded by kayakers, you might not have anybody to critique you - video lets you do some of that.
Don't just watch instructional video, get video taken of you - it never looks like you think it does. If you don't have a mentor/coach/model and are surrounded by kayakers, you might not have anybody to critique you - video lets you do some of that.
C-Boats Moderator
http://picasaweb.google.com/scott.broam/CanoeOutfitting
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How's this for a forward stroke! 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHE-TmMq ... re=related
Personally, I like the soundtrack too.
KNeal
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHE-TmMq ... re=related
Personally, I like the soundtrack too.
KNeal
C-boats Moderator
"Believe me, my young friend, there is nothing-absolutely nothing-half so much worth doing as simply messing about in boats."
"Believe me, my young friend, there is nothing-absolutely nothing-half so much worth doing as simply messing about in boats."
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fleckbass
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Great Vid!
NT
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Kelly-Rand
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This thread started with comments about paddling the Viper OC1 and the difference in paddling that boat from earlier experience. I practice in flat water in the boat that has the best glide factor which is my Viper C1. On river runs especially more difficult one's I paddle my Atom. The stroke style I have learned on the lake in the other boat is transferable to this boat. I tried a Taureau and found that I would have to be more diligent in keeping the boat flat or on edge to achieve similar performance. I have not found that I am interested in the shorter boats even though they open up opportunities on lower flow runs for surfing. I like the river running style of surfing the width of ledge drops and the ability to accelerate down or up river.
Adjusting to a new boat on the river can be frustrating because rivers force us to do them in bites unless we have a plan. I have great trepidation trying new boats on river runs, just ask Kneal of our experience in my new C2. You have to find out how a new boat will react to your style and that is best done on a lake. I like to try other peoples boats especailly OC's and find I am very awkward at paddling them when compared to the owner. But, I always feel that with practice I can adjust my style to the boat.
When I started paddling C1 8 years ago I don't believe I had any specific paddling technique. After about 2 years I was beginning to use the torso and also pulling the boat towards (astride) the paddle. I think that C1's force this upon you, it seemed like a natural progression. So, when I did take a one weekend seminar with Tom Foster, what he was teaching was not exactly new. It was more a confirmation of that which I was learning on my own. I would have improved my abilities immensely if I had continued in the following sessions but I could not commit the time. An hours practice on a lake is worth more than several trips on a river.
Till next
Adjusting to a new boat on the river can be frustrating because rivers force us to do them in bites unless we have a plan. I have great trepidation trying new boats on river runs, just ask Kneal of our experience in my new C2. You have to find out how a new boat will react to your style and that is best done on a lake. I like to try other peoples boats especailly OC's and find I am very awkward at paddling them when compared to the owner. But, I always feel that with practice I can adjust my style to the boat.
When I started paddling C1 8 years ago I don't believe I had any specific paddling technique. After about 2 years I was beginning to use the torso and also pulling the boat towards (astride) the paddle. I think that C1's force this upon you, it seemed like a natural progression. So, when I did take a one weekend seminar with Tom Foster, what he was teaching was not exactly new. It was more a confirmation of that which I was learning on my own. I would have improved my abilities immensely if I had continued in the following sessions but I could not commit the time. An hours practice on a lake is worth more than several trips on a river.
Till next
Jim KR
"with single blade in hand
a C-1 I will stand"
"with single blade in hand
a C-1 I will stand"
Neither I am an expert in perfect strokes, I'm still learning.
But I can definetly second the flatwater drill part. 2 weeks ago we were paddling a section of the Inn in Austria (Imster Slucht). A friend of mine, only paddling whitewater, had serious troubles in his nitro. I focused on what I trained on flatwater, picked up some things about dvd instructions and had no problem at all in my viper11.
Slalom racing is also a good suggestion! I never really tried it on the river, though intending to. But slalom exercises on flatwater is also very rewarding! If you search on my posts, I somewhere mention a link about a flatwater slalom drill.
For me, I extended the number of poles, worked out the distances for my boat, and thought of really a lot of exercises to do. The disadvantae is you need a lot of space in a shallow pond or lake.
And yes, I've said it before and I'll say it again: video! Now one of the better ways to learn critique yourself is by teaching others. You teach others, you learn to focus on errors, and then you'll see your own errors better as well. Teaching is also a very good way of improving your own skills -not only true for paddling!-
But I can definetly second the flatwater drill part. 2 weeks ago we were paddling a section of the Inn in Austria (Imster Slucht). A friend of mine, only paddling whitewater, had serious troubles in his nitro. I focused on what I trained on flatwater, picked up some things about dvd instructions and had no problem at all in my viper11.
Slalom racing is also a good suggestion! I never really tried it on the river, though intending to. But slalom exercises on flatwater is also very rewarding! If you search on my posts, I somewhere mention a link about a flatwater slalom drill.
For me, I extended the number of poles, worked out the distances for my boat, and thought of really a lot of exercises to do. The disadvantae is you need a lot of space in a shallow pond or lake.
And yes, I've said it before and I'll say it again: video! Now one of the better ways to learn critique yourself is by teaching others. You teach others, you learn to focus on errors, and then you'll see your own errors better as well. Teaching is also a very good way of improving your own skills -not only true for paddling!-
Hee hee hee. So, you still remember that short five minutes (or was that, loooonng five minutes) together in your "brand-spankin' new" c-2Kelly-Rand wrote:I have great trepidation trying new boats on river runs, just ask Kneal of our experience in my new C2.
. Jim, an added frustration with a new boat on the river (and having a new bow partner), you needed to include paddling the stern on your non-dominant side--kinda helps to increase the awkwardness of the experience.This thread has got a bunch of good info. on it. Almost too much to absorb. That compells me to add another $0.01 of more stuff to ponder. You FIRST have to feel comfortable/balanced in the boat with your outfitting, then you will be able to discover a strong, powerful forward stroke. But any stroke you use will not be effective until you feel "connected" to the boat. Brings to mind paddling "Gonzo's" tiger-striped Acrobat on the Cheat Narrows. I felt REAL comfortable and secure with his outfitting and could really get the boat to perform the way I wanted to, even though I never paddled his boat before. That's a rare moment when trying out different boats. Gotta say that I absolutely enjoyed paddling it. Hope the Ceamweaver fits the same way and I get to try that one out as well.
KNeal
C-boats Moderator
"Believe me, my young friend, there is nothing-absolutely nothing-half so much worth doing as simply messing about in boats."
"Believe me, my young friend, there is nothing-absolutely nothing-half so much worth doing as simply messing about in boats."
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sbroam
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Kneal - I'm not so sure you should try the Ceemweaver... Unless you are ready to buy one I mean, I was starting to get comfortable in it (that second time at the FB) - you'll go nuts in it...
I mean, I was starting to get comfortable in it (that second time at the FB) - you'll go nuts in it...C-Boats Moderator
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oopsiflipped
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C1ing doesn't just open up low volume play, it opens up big water play as well. I didn't see anyone surfing an open boat at Race Creek when the Salmon was 42000 cfs this spring. Course I've seen about 4 canoes on whitewater all summer.
Playboating is great practice, too. It lets you come back to the same feature over and over. You can push yourself to try new moves and that always leads to lots of roll practice. I've been working on rolling without setting up. I also had a 'miracle' cross roll last week. I don't think I did much, but the continuation of my flipping momentum and the wave train turned me back up right! I was so shocked a promptly flipped back over.
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Playboating is great practice, too. It lets you come back to the same feature over and over. You can push yourself to try new moves and that always leads to lots of roll practice. I've been working on rolling without setting up. I also had a 'miracle' cross roll last week. I don't think I did much, but the continuation of my flipping momentum and the wave train turned me back up right! I was so shocked a promptly flipped back over.
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