We are responsible for our own safety and it’s an individual decision to determine an acceptable risk. Yes, having someone else to rescue us is wonderful, but it should not be used as a factor in deciding whether you run a rapid or not. If a rescue from a whitewater situation is necessary, it will often put the rescuer at risk.
I boat with others for the enjoyment of the company, but not with the expectation that they have to save me. The primary way boating with others can increase safety is in having more input on judging risks, but the need to prove oneself to others can cancel that positive.
Rapids are surprisingly forgiving of mistakes, but things can turn bad very quickly because of the large power of moving water.
QuicoReed wrote:
I'm glad your son survived. I am also very glad this didn't occur at a moment in which someone else's life depended on HIM.
There are some sports where you can get away with having a medical condition that might cause temporary loss of consciousness. WHITEWATER CANOING AND KAYAKING IN NOT ONE OF THEM.
He could have been in class I water and still drowned because of his condition. If that had happened in more dangerous water, someone else could have gotten hurt trying to rescue him. If Esprit didn't happen to have the right equipment, he would have died. I've NEVER heard of ANYONE carrying one of these around and the odds are slim that the next time someone will be able to use another one to revive him.
He may love paddling sports, but it just seems wrong that he would go back out on the water with this condition. Even if he says he's taking the risk himself, he's not the only one at risk. When I boat, I need to know that the guy next to me is skilled enough and strong enough to help me if I need it. And I have a responsibility to be there for him (or her).
I would really hesitate to boat with someone if they told me, "hey, man, keep an eye on me, I have a medical condition and I can black out at any time. OK, let's go boating!"
Yes, there is some learning from this story. Maybe it's time to learn how to make a reasonable assessment of one's own medical condition and not put oneself and others at risk?
Sorry to be a bummer. I don't want to hear how he drowned the second time.
So what are the minimum health requirements to paddle? Are they different from flatwater to class V?
The guy had a heart condition. Best anyone could tell it was under control. He shouldn't paddle whitewater?
Guess I can't agree.
I'm an insulin dependent diabetic. That means that my blood sugar COULD drop low enough to make me stupid(er), give me convulsions or even put me in a coma. I shouldn't paddle either?
Sorry, I'm not quitting.
I do try take care of myself and to make sure that folks I paddle with are aware. If they choose not to paddle with me for that or any other reason that's their buisiness. But I won't respect anyone telling me I shouldn't paddle because they are afraid of my medical issues. I sure won't try to tell anyone else that they shouldn't paddle because of theirs.
Tommy
PS Good one with the AED. We got them and got trained at work last year. Haven't had to use them but they are good to have.
I just wanted to clarify that I was NOT judging the boater for the first time down the river, after he was cleared medically. He had no idea he'd have this problem, and the doctor told him he'd be OK. So I have no issue there.
What I'm concerned about now is going forward.
The implant will "kick in" in case it happens again?
"While recovering in hospital Joel had an internal defibrilator implanted in his chest. The medical staff have advised him that this automatic devise will "kick in" in the event this situation were to reoccur. Many people have this implant and live very active and adventurous lives. So... medically he had been cleared to continue his previous lifestyle. "
Jim, I have a son too, and I KNOW how you must feel for your boy. So take a moment to think about what they just told you.
1) The blackout could happen again.
2) The defibrilator will "kick start" his heart again.
But if the poor guy is upside down in his boat when the defibrilator kicks in, what good will it do? It might even force him to aspirate water and guarantee that he drowns.
How many of those medical "experts" are also whitewater kayakers?
Do they REALLY understand how difficult and dangerous it can be to try to rescue an inverted boater on a difficult rapid?
Imagine for a moment he's boating on the Chatooga IV, and blacks out above one of the notorious rapids. He could end up in a seive, or a friend--even his brother--might end up killed while trying to rescue him.
In the end, this is up to him. But my personal opinion, as a boater, as a father, is that this is a miraculously avoided tragedy, but if he goes back out there, next time it could be worse.
The most important, decisive factor in a boater is knowing when NOT to boat.
i agree with both of the points. if a guy came up to me and said that he blacked out repeatedly and it could happen at any time and wanted to paddle with me i would definately steer my boat elsewhere...... however my point i guess was more geared towards the commercial side of things. because these devices are simple and easily carried on a raft why not take them. ...
Cheers, Ben[/quote]
Ben, I totally agree. Especially commercial outfits.
Here in Colorado last year, there were about 5 deaths in just the early spring. Most (4 of the 5, I think) of those deaths were older boaters (mid 40s thru 60s) who were guests aboard rafts in COLD spring conditions in high water. My understanding is that several of those died of heart attacks, NOT drowning. So, YES, it makes sense for them to carry the AEDs. Great idea!
[quote="TommyC1"]So what are the minimum health requirements to paddle? Are they different from flatwater to class V?
The guy had a heart condition. Best anyone could tell it was under control. He shouldn't paddle whitewater?
Guess I can't agree.
I'm an insulin dependent diabetic. That means that my blood sugar COULD drop low enough to make me stupid(er), give me convulsions or even put me in a coma. I shouldn't paddle either?
Sorry, I'm not quitting.
I do try take care of myself and to make sure that folks I paddle with are aware. If they choose not to paddle with me for that or any other reason that's their buisiness. But I won't respect anyone telling me I shouldn't paddle because they are afraid of my medical issues. I sure won't try to tell anyone else that they shouldn't paddle because of theirs.
[/quote]
Is there a different health "requirement" for class I or class V?
Do you really have to ask? Seriously, don't you think it's wise to ask, "am I physically strong enough to get thru that rapid? Am I capable of swimming it?"
There is a HUGE difference between class I and V, let's not pretend there isn't.
I WOULD run class I or II with someone with a condition. I'd run class III with him if and ONLY if there were plenty of boaters to lend a hand, and if it was pool drop water, not the Arkansas Numbers or Royal Gorge run.
And NO WAY would I feel safe going on IV or V under any circumstances with a kayaker with that kind of condition. Maybe if he (she) was in a raft, or in a tandem canoe with another healthy boater. But not as a single kayaker.
That's just my take on it.
And ONE more factor: you are an adult man. You've lived with your condition for a long time. YOu know what you have to do to maintain your sugar levels and to recognize when you may be having trouble. You ALSO have a sense of mortality and hopefully some common sense. A young kid doesn't, by definition. They regularly make bad decisions. Adults HAVE to help guide them thru to keep them alive until they have enough experience to make wise decisions on their own.
Thanks for the interesting and civil conversation everyone. I don't want to upset anyone, but it is a really important topic to discuss.
See you on the river--if you ever come to Colorado!
Curtis
1) The blackout could happen again.
2) The defibrilator will "kick start" his heart again.
But if the poor guy is upside down in his boat when the defibrilator kicks in, what good will it do? It might even force him to aspirate water and guarantee that he drowns
I'm pretty sure the blackout was a result of the heart stopping and blood flow stopping. The defib. will "kick in" before the blackout occurs and may fire without him ever knowing it.
I've known a diabetic who got in a bad way while on the river and it could have been bad, and one that passed out beside the road at 5:00 am during a run. They are both still doing the things they love, they just take precautions.
As a paddler, I'd be more afraid of someone in perfect health that took stupid risks and paddled beyond their ability. In a raft, that might be the kid that won't pay attention and is goofing off that gets the whole raft ina bad spot, yet they are taken on commercial runs all the time.
I wish the paddler and family well, and hope he continues to enjoy the things he enjoys. Great job on Esprit's part for being prepared for a big what-if.
It surprises me that Joel WAS medically cleared with his medical condition. It is true that the vast majority of persons with hypertrophic cardiomyopathy do live a full life, uneventful of a cardiac event. It is also true that when a young adult male dies of a cardiac event, this condition is the leading cause. So, when it does happen, it is most likely fatal. I am thankful that Joel gets to return to his family and his "normal" way of life, thanks to the implanted defibrillator and the positive actions that Esprit and all the rescuers and medical staff did to help him. I am happy, and surprised, that the AED put the heart back into rhythm, helping Joel to beat the odds. Yes, beat the odds. When young adults have such cardiac events as cardiac arrest, they usually do not survive.
That is an awesome testament that Esprit gets to share with our paddling community.
KNeal
C-boats Moderator
"Believe me, my young friend, there is nothing-absolutely nothing-half so much worth doing as simply messing about in boats."
I'm not to surprised that he was cleared - as folks have said many with the condition live very full lives - paddling, climbing, biking, skiing, etc!
Nor am I surprised that folks worked hard to keep him alive (paddlers are like that), that friends cared (true friends are that type of people) and that his family is very happy with the final outcome (as I'm sure he is too)!
What I'm surprised at is that the AED was there. Kudos to Esprit for the forsight to purchase, train and pack it - I hope others step up to that example. Esprit sounds like a class group to go on a trip with! Paul C.
PS: I also want to wish Joel the best! His family too!
Paul C.
Cboats Moderator
Official TOG Member (Team Old Guy)!
I hope Joel never decides to stop kayaking. In fact I hope he never becomes afraid of doing things he loves because of any medical conditions what so ever! People like Joel and Jordan are keen and much more trained then the average boater out there! I would choose to go on the water with them any day and before going with anybody else.
Many are worried about boating with "strangers" especially if they know or informed that they may have a medical condition. But the truth is that one day someone perfectly "healthy" will be rescued by someone who's called "sick". I would be glad to bring Joel on my river trips knowing that he is the one who's got my back.
A little something to think about...
The USA then should think of prohibiting the average American (overweight) from going rafting since they are more likely to have a heart condition. Or should they just step outside and go do the things they want to do...
I've had episodic atrial fibrillation since 1961, but it just makes me a little faint. It would never prevent me from rolling or reaching a safe eddy. In order to spare others any practical or moral conflicts, I do nearly all of my paddling alone, and I don't paddle above class 2-3 unless Louie is along.
I hate to think how bleak my life would have been if I had decided to do the right thing.
Please note we're watching this post. Some good points have been brought up, but I can tell there are strong feelings on both sides of the issue. Please keep it positive, and realize that other points of view may be equally as valid as yours. Thankfully we live in a free country.
I, too, am glad it worked out well, and that Esprit, and others, can use this as an example that AED's DO make a difference when used properly.
kudos to all for speaking up on this isssue. I for one believe that as technology makes new advances in safety and emergency medical care capable, commercial outfitters should be held responsible for preventing negligence and doing what they reasonably can to keep their customers and other river users safe at all times.
I hope this incident stands as an example of a new standard of care that all commercial outfitters will see and strive to live up to.
There are other issues brought up on this thread that are interesting, such as: At what point should or can a commercial outfitter deny taking a customer on a rafting trip because of medical history?
We are all responsible for our own actions and need to recognize those consequences while enjoying any activity, so just be honest and safe out there.
markzak wrote: I for one believe that as technology makes new advances in safety and emergency medical care capable, commercial outfitters should be held responsible for preventing negligence and doing what they reasonably can to keep their customers and other river users safe at all times.
Are meaning to imply that it is an outiftter's responsibility to take care of private boaters? That is just plain ridiculous. Stopping to help if they can sure, but if you're expecting some hungover first year guide to come and save you, you're insane. I seriously doubt that is what you mean, but it sure reads that way.
Another item I'll toss out here - a few weeks back I noticed that a lawsuit had been allowed to move forward where a good samaritan stepped in to help someone they perceived to be in danger (car accident - a friend pulled another friend from the wreck, one friend is paralized now).
If such lawsuits are allowed to go forward, why would an outfitter, or anyone, considering coming to someone elses aid? (we're not talking medical help here, as you'll see if you read the article).
Do we need 'I won't sue you' bracelets or something?
Just a comment on that state of our culture these days...and how it may impact our sport long term (short term we're fine...cultural changes seem to take a generation or more...but once they happen....)
