how to convert a pool roll to a combat roll

[jakke]

Hi Guys,

First thing: thank you all for the good advice!

Yes, my learning might help others too. On the one hand, I hate strugling with my roll this hard. On the other hand, if I've had lots of problems, I'll recognise them sooner when teaching other people (hear me, I'm not even having a reliable roll and I'm talking about teaching others ).
I should write it down somewhere. Although most of the focus points are mentioned in the dvd's by Kent Ford, Bob Foote and all the books. You just have to realise what exactly is your problem.

@ Wetnobby:
You're probably right. I do know by now how to do a good, effortless roll -though there is still some room for improvement-. But now I have to cement it in my system, so that I always do the good thing.
The next thing is to keep my eyes closed and improve my setup there.

The rushing thing was actually true for me. I rushed, afraid of getting out of air. Now I learned to wait, get my "second air" and then roll up. Now I tend to hang in my boat upside down for a couple seconds and then start my setup. I probably do a similar thing with my eyes closed.

Wasting the brace I don't do anymore, if I do a good timing and remember to push the T-grip down. I used to have painfull shoulders and ellbows after a pool session. This week, I haven't had any. I hardly use the low brace now.

Anyway, I have all winter to work on my roll. Hopefully I'm able to roll once in a while on the river by Easter, when I start my non-belgian whitewater river season.

Next weeks pool session will be a great test: do I still know how to do it correctly?

[jakke]

I had my last pool session of 2008 last night.

My observation of the T-grip hand was correct, I still rolled quite effortless. Though there is still a minor difference between smooth and really smooth rolling. Something to figure out by 2009 .

I did take an old drytop and a cheap pfd (heavily padded on the chest, so it comes close to my whitewater pfd). And I did roll it!
- setting up with a drytop is quite different then in just a thermo top. The first times I had to focus to really take my time.
- the pfd is bothering. I hit the gunwale with it when straightening the boat. Now it must be a matter of movement, because by the end I did not notice that problem anymore.
- I did not really have the problem with a sinking paddle with the eyes closed now, because the pfd kept me quite upright.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I had the impression that the roll was easier when I did a really agressive knee-snap combined with a good timing for the bracing. That seemed to cost me less effort then a slower roll ?

anyway, I should keep those thoughts now for 2 weeks, up to 2009!

[Bruce Farrenkopf]

Jakke,

Write it all down and organize it. This will help cement what you have learned in your brain and will allow you to easily recall the information if your roll weakens later....... and will help you pass the techniques on to others when and if you teach the roll.

You may be the just the right pwerson to teach since you have had trouble with the roll.

SYOTR,
Bruce

[jakke]

This topic is my archive .

I tried last weekend with drysuit and pfd, no luck trying...
The first attempt was the best of them all. But I forgot to rotate my torso and move my nose to the other gunnel. Oops...
The rest was just crap. On the video I saw what I did wrong: not enough knee action, yet again. But water was so freezing cold I did stop it after 3 or 4 attempts. One way or another my body kind of acts based on how it feels. So if I'm as upright without pfd as I am with pfd, I'm almost there, with pfd I've only just begon.
Another guy rolled without a problem. But then again, I have a 115N pfd, he maybe a 50N, probably even less. That makes hades of a difference to me.

Anyway, I keep on trying .

[jakke]

First pool session of the year. I immediately started with drytop and pfd.

First time I had to bail out. Same problem as "out there" a couple weeks ago.

I found out that I really have to, kind of, push down with my upper body when wearing my pfd. Maybe it just goes easier when not wearing one and I don't realize. After I realised that, I didn't have to bail out anymore.

Though I did roll everytime, I haven't really nailed down what to do for a good roll. Next week will be the test. Will I roll that boat first time right with drytop and pfd. After that I can try to nail down my technique to a decent level and hopefully, finally, start moving over to a "combat roll" out there in the wild.

[Tiggy]

Hip snap and sweep your torso//nose super low accross the gunwales.
Your boat should resemble a log with no branches, roles easy right?
When you are "teed" (perpendicular) to the hull, nose on the paddle (ish) , snap your hips hard, the boat will roll without you.
Second thing is to get your arse back into the boat and complete the roll, thats where sweeping your nose across the gunwales comes in, hesitate before sitting up, sometimes you are not quite there, water tends to be on your paddling side when rolling.
These two motions look like one motion when executed properly.

As far as setting up under water, hold your breath, lol.
If you get lost under there, just crouch forward, centerline with the bow and then move out to your rolling position. Shifting your hips can roll the boat up slightly before you begin as well.

As far as perfecting a combat roll, just take harder lines and flip more!!!
Hope this helps.

[jakke]

Wow, I yesterday had for about my worst pool session since I started lerning to roll. I took my own boat (viper 11) instead of a borrowed salsa.
Ok, I had deflated one of the airbags a bit, and forgot to inflate it again until after the pool session.
But I didn't even come close to a decent roll. I took out the pfd and drytop, and event hen I had trouble getting the boat to turn :?

Frustrating! Last week I thought i was almost there, now I'm even further away from a combat roll then I ever was. And I'm working on that roll for over a year now! Keep on trying, but some progress would be nice...

[wetnobby]

Jakke, Some loose thoughts...

I paddle and roll lots of different boats, my observations of the differences between boats are that the biggest difference is "roll speed". By speed I mean the speed the boat naturally wants to rotate at.
The Salsa is a quick boat to roll..to transfer to a bigger boat the movements need to be slightly slower & smoother. Give the boat time to move and have some momentum.

[MarkE]

Jakke,

If you have a friend in the pool, this is something that helped me prepare for my combat roll. It simulates some of the less then perfect conditions on the river:

Your friend stands at the stern of the boat. Then, without warning you or telling you which side, he or she rolls the boat. You should brace and attempt to not let the boat roll over. Your friend should let your brace be sucessful some of the times so you don't always expect to roll completely. Once upside down, set up and attempt to roll the boat. In some cases, if your roll looks like it will be sucessfull, your friend should prevent you from rolling all the way up. This will force you to set up again and try another roll. Depending on how comfortable you are, your friend may thwart your second, third, fourth, etc. attempts before he or she lets you completely roll up. Then again, he or she may let you roll up the first time. The point is that it should be different every time.

I found this excercie helpful because it forced me to roll when I had to, not when I wanted to and not when I felt ready or comfortable. This is often how it is on the river.

Good luck!

Mark

[jakke]

Wetnobby,

now you say it, my viper did feel slower then the salsa, indeed. Probably the badly inflated airbag slowed the boat even more.

MarkE, great tip about converting the pool roll into a combat roll! The problem is that right now I seem to have lost even my pool roll.

I'm waiting for better weather and warmer temperatures. So then I can hopefully get out a couple times a week to work on my roll.

Meanwhile I keep on searching and trying to find a good way. I think my major problem is that I get used to a certain setup to easy, and thus not working on a better movement. No idea how to fix that.

[amollohan99]

Jake, I began to learn an OC roll in a Viper 11. I had a short bag in the front and a long bag in the back. I could only get it to 3/4 then back into the drink Id go every time. I am convinced it was the bow being "stuck" in the water while the stern was up in the air. The bow was acting like a shovel not letting me completely turn the boat. I tried it in a shaman and nailed it the first, second, third and so on. My opinion is the Viper is a more difficult boat to roll.

$0.02

Andy

[philcanoe]

Just come on down to Alabama - if there's no water here, we'll go to Tennessee or where ever there happens 2b something steep with water.. after a couple days of swimming some big drops - you'll have it down pat

my roll in the pool stinks... my roll on this or that weeny wave is ridiculous... even on something like the Ocoee (a good class III) whoop-dee -doo ... but jump in doo-doo hole (one of those you say, Oh-Sh__)... or something with some major drops or undercuts down below and it's there... it's roll time

you're just pretending... first you been practicing in a Salsa, which is more C1 and thinking it would really help (you're past that getting the mechanics down phase)... and then you didn't care to wash your boat or blow up air bags... or it's this --- or it's that... GOOD LORD man - just go get a arse whipping and you'll forget about all that silly stuff..' guaranteed... you'll flip over and the first thought will be I NEED TO ROLL - AND I NEED TO DO IT NOW - and then you will... the steeper the better

if that doesn't help... then it sounds like you're suffering from the same thing many an aspiring guitar player does... they practice the same mistakes over and over - hoping that it'll sound better sooner or later... you can get the bad habit's so reinforced, that you may never recover... maybe it's time to find a pro - and go pay someone that does this for a living... before you get hurt or reinforce that bad form any more

[jakke]

Thanks for your input guys!

And thanks but no thanks, Alabama is a long trip to learn how to roll. All my hollidays are already booked this year to go paddling .

I had a pool session yesterday, back in the salsa. I rolled, but it didn't feel good. Rolling with pfd did pose some problems though by the end (getting tired I suppose after 90 minutes of rolling).

but I've been thinking. It's not in my nature having to work soo long to master a skill. I know I'm not very flexible, to name it in an optimistic way. Secondly I've had a car accident a couple years ago, nothing serious someone crashed into the back of my car. Anyway, this crash did result in soar and stiff muscles on the right lower back, quite some inflexibility in the lower back and hips, ... .

I'm starting to think that might be a part of the problem mastering that roll. After yesterdays pool session, my lower back is painfull. Maybe because of the issues there, rolling becomes a whole lot harder?

Anyway, I keep on trying and also stretching to get those muscles loose again!

[philcanoe]

just trying to get your attention, with that go get hammered - of course that's why you learn to roll

still - have you ever considered paying for a lesson...

... i've paid for a couple over the years, was real selective in choosing who it was from (Kent Ford- twice- incredible)... and they paid off big dividends, in terms of return on investment... not saying - you can't do it yourself, but (sometimes) someone else will see thing's... things that you might not even be aware of ... I consider mine money in the bank because otherwise it'd of cost me a bunch of time, and probably would not have gotten as good of results

(other examples have been, a Slalom clinic and Safety class... both worth the cost)

[the great gonzo]

Jakke,

I agree with philcanoe, take a lesson with someone who has a good roll and a good eye. There is only so much that can be done through talking about rolling and through watching video's on youtube.
I have a friend who has tried to learn to roll a C1 since late last fall. I sent her links to videos, picture, talked her through it on the phone, the works. She didn't succeed. So last Saturday I went her local pool session and worked with her. She made a lot of progress and was, withing less than 1/2 hour, able to pull off rolls. Not consistently yet , but she's getting there.
Also, take a camera to the pool and have someone take video of your rolls. Seeing myself always helps me.

TGG!