Money in the Bank!!!!
White Water Rescue (safety class) better than money!!
Phil; telling it, like it is.
Jakke, I think that perhaps you are over-analyzing this roll, thing.
If I start thinking about technique too much; my roll is sure to fail.
Thinking about technique is important untill you nail that first roll ; but then, like NIKE: just do it!!
how to convert a pool roll to a combat roll
Moderators: kenneth, sbroam, TheKrikkitWars, Mike W., Sir Adam, KNeal, PAC, adamin
The problem is we don't have the luxury of many good instructors here in belgium.
The only one who is teaching how to roll, I know quite well, en he tought me how to roll. He is not coming to the pool every week, I'm trying on my own. The problem is he couldn't tell me either why my roll is failing with drytop and pfd on.
I can tell what a good roll is, because I already did some. Only the week after I seem to have lost it.
I don't have someone film me every week, but I do have video work of myself trying to roll. Sweeping out too far, pulling in the upper body too fast, sometimes not enoug knee work, ... . I can all see it. And most of the times I can also find it in the pool and solve it. But I haven't really nailed down the "good roll" yet, nor mastered a roll with pfd on.
No 2 or 3 hour drive pool sessions nearby. But I'll be taking some instruction in the coming months with other instructors, maybe there is time to work on my roll.
And indeed (self) rescue skills are more important, but I work on that as well, no worries
.
The only one who is teaching how to roll, I know quite well, en he tought me how to roll. He is not coming to the pool every week, I'm trying on my own. The problem is he couldn't tell me either why my roll is failing with drytop and pfd on.
I can tell what a good roll is, because I already did some. Only the week after I seem to have lost it.
I don't have someone film me every week, but I do have video work of myself trying to roll. Sweeping out too far, pulling in the upper body too fast, sometimes not enoug knee work, ... . I can all see it. And most of the times I can also find it in the pool and solve it. But I haven't really nailed down the "good roll" yet, nor mastered a roll with pfd on.
No 2 or 3 hour drive pool sessions nearby. But I'll be taking some instruction in the coming months with other instructors, maybe there is time to work on my roll.
And indeed (self) rescue skills are more important, but I work on that as well, no worries
.Bringing up this topic once more. But I must say I think I almost tackled that same hurdle as you c1swim.
at yesterdays pool session I managed to get the boat upright, face still in the water on knee/lower back power only. It's a matter of timing and using the right muscles and the right pressure points on the saddle!
10 minutes later I did it all wrong again. But now I know what to search for and what's it all about.
I hope I can now finally nail that roll down to a serious roll and step up to a combat roll. But first drill in the right move!
at yesterdays pool session I managed to get the boat upright, face still in the water on knee/lower back power only. It's a matter of timing and using the right muscles and the right pressure points on the saddle!
10 minutes later I did it all wrong again. But now I know what to search for and what's it all about.
I hope I can now finally nail that roll down to a serious roll and step up to a combat roll. But first drill in the right move!
I'm sorry, but now you're going a bridge too far. Right, talking about moves without video is hard and most of the time useless. But I initially started from a pool roll, which turned out not to be as good as I thought. That's it. I'm sorry I'm sharing the things I learn on the way. I see this topic as a usefull resource for people learning to roll after I learned even my pool roll isn't great.philcanoe wrote:no way....you're the same guy, that's paying money for instruction, and still doesn't know which side/end of boat to paddle... i'm with you Craig... we need to see a video, no more from me till we see
Secondly, the question about bow or stern: it ended up in the style I use, where I was just wondering what style people use. Just because I noticed 2 major styles are being thought. I wrote down some of my thoughts, but I did not intend to talk about my style and my thoughts (I got dragged along). Apparently it's not a good thing to think about your paddling....
I didn't even bother to reply on that topic since the golf suggestion came.
I suggest you just don't read and certainly do not reply on topics your're not interested in.
And in case you want video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEJ8990kFxE I'm wearing the black thermo top and a black bathing cap. It's not recent, it contains commercial info to a company in which I don't share, but it's video.
But I think I'll just forget about this topic, just as I forgot about the paddling styles.
a bridge to far....
Yes, an apology (I'll email it)
... however if you notice... the two threads with the most replies on the 1st page, have been from folks doing their best to give you advice.. so it's becoming obvious (as most beginners are) that you're not really knowledgeable enough, to ask the right questions. It's not that you should stop asking, just give us something to help you with...
so a Craig Smerda suggested, a video makes perfect sense, after all a picture is worth a thousand words. It's not that people are tired of being helpful, it's just they need to know where to help out at. Lord knows there's been a lot of people, telling me where to go.
Yes, an apology (I'll email it)
... however if you notice... the two threads with the most replies on the 1st page, have been from folks doing their best to give you advice.. so it's becoming obvious (as most beginners are) that you're not really knowledgeable enough, to ask the right questions. It's not that you should stop asking, just give us something to help you with...
so a Craig Smerda suggested, a video makes perfect sense, after all a picture is worth a thousand words. It's not that people are tired of being helpful, it's just they need to know where to help out at. Lord knows there's been a lot of people, telling me where to go.
-
yarnellboat
- C Maven
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canoe club article
Influenced in part by the recent discussion on here, I wrote a little 3-step article on rolling for my canoe club's newsletter.
Rolling is a relatively new concept to the recreational ww canoeists in BC, and many people, especially the veteran crowd, remain uninterested on unsure about the value of rolling (some even argue that rolling a canoe is a bad/unsafe idea altogether and are against rolling, but let's just ignore that concept and not even get started with that debate).
The article isn't perfect. It's purpose is to get class II paddlers interested, not for detailed analysis from class IV+ creekers, so take it for what it's worth. It's written largely based on watching some friends learn to roll this winter.
A summary of the technique in the article might be this:
Keep your face in the water, square with your shoulders, looking straight down (i.e., don't turn your head towards the bow/surface too early; so, maybe it is like golf - some version of "keep your eye on the ball"). We observed that turning your head seemed to be a big factor in failed rolls.
So anyway, this article will be up for the month of March 2009:
http://beavercanoeclub.org/
PY.
Rolling is a relatively new concept to the recreational ww canoeists in BC, and many people, especially the veteran crowd, remain uninterested on unsure about the value of rolling (some even argue that rolling a canoe is a bad/unsafe idea altogether and are against rolling, but let's just ignore that concept and not even get started with that debate).
The article isn't perfect. It's purpose is to get class II paddlers interested, not for detailed analysis from class IV+ creekers, so take it for what it's worth. It's written largely based on watching some friends learn to roll this winter.
A summary of the technique in the article might be this:
Keep your face in the water, square with your shoulders, looking straight down (i.e., don't turn your head towards the bow/surface too early; so, maybe it is like golf - some version of "keep your eye on the ball"). We observed that turning your head seemed to be a big factor in failed rolls.
So anyway, this article will be up for the month of March 2009:
http://beavercanoeclub.org/
PY.
ok, no intention to flamebait here, but I want to add a couple things:
paddling styles:
I did not ask for help there, I was just wondering what most people do. It ended up in suggestions for my style, but it was not the goal of asking. I noticed there were 2 major different styles and I did wonder how people combine that. Not asking the right questions? Maybe, probably. I didn't try the different styles long enough, so I cannot claim wisedom on that area.
It was just a question on how people paddle their boats. Including the interesting remark that it depends on boat type (which some instructors doesn't seem to bother). To me it's clear you paddle a C1 with as few stern strokes as possible. A traditional boat you just have more to power at the stern because of the length of the boat. OC1 playboats are in the middle, and sometimes confusing. But there isn't just one style.
roling:
well, as I said, I thought I had a decent pool roll, being ready to move over to the river. After a while I realized even my pool roll was crap. But initially my question was about bringing a pool roll to the river. Here I did take instruction, I did watch some instruction dvd's, send some video to instructors. Yes, my mistake, I did not post them here.
Anyhow, all these actions made me improve my setup, keeping my head low, ... . But still the knee-action is bad. And that's probably what any instructor could see and would say. Though no instructor can exactly tell me what to to with my body, to get that boat upright. And even telling so, I won't master it because someone told me. I hope this topic and the lessons I learned can be of real value for someone else struggling with his/her roll.
I know no one can help me remotely with my paddling. I'll be stepping down to the basics (even back to flatwater) this spring.
I'm also thinking of creating kind of setup to attach my camera to video myself working flatwater, judging myself, or have others judge my paddling.
I see a lot of sloppiness in my paddling that I didn't see a couple months ago. Back then I was happy I made that small eddy. Now I make it, but I hate the way I make it because some things just aren't right. This learning also brought me to the paddling style question.
I'm now at a point I realize I do a lot of things sloppy. So I have a lot of questions how to improve, how to get that sloppyness out. And most of the things I'll have to figure out myself. An instructor can point out, but I have to do it. An instructor can tell me what to do, but I still have to do it, master it. And there will be instructors pointing out and telling what to do this spring.
Anyhow, 2 topics that got out of hand while not intended so. And yes, I'm missing video to judge myself, or have others to watch my paddling. I just don't have someone on a regular basis filming my pool sessions and certainly not my flatwater sessions. I'm searching for a solution there.
oh, and last but not least, thanks to everyone for their usefull suggestions!
and maybe "a bridge to far" is not an English expression, it certainly is one in Dutch.
paddling styles:
I did not ask for help there, I was just wondering what most people do. It ended up in suggestions for my style, but it was not the goal of asking. I noticed there were 2 major different styles and I did wonder how people combine that. Not asking the right questions? Maybe, probably. I didn't try the different styles long enough, so I cannot claim wisedom on that area.
It was just a question on how people paddle their boats. Including the interesting remark that it depends on boat type (which some instructors doesn't seem to bother). To me it's clear you paddle a C1 with as few stern strokes as possible. A traditional boat you just have more to power at the stern because of the length of the boat. OC1 playboats are in the middle, and sometimes confusing. But there isn't just one style.
roling:
well, as I said, I thought I had a decent pool roll, being ready to move over to the river. After a while I realized even my pool roll was crap. But initially my question was about bringing a pool roll to the river. Here I did take instruction, I did watch some instruction dvd's, send some video to instructors. Yes, my mistake, I did not post them here.
Anyhow, all these actions made me improve my setup, keeping my head low, ... . But still the knee-action is bad. And that's probably what any instructor could see and would say. Though no instructor can exactly tell me what to to with my body, to get that boat upright. And even telling so, I won't master it because someone told me. I hope this topic and the lessons I learned can be of real value for someone else struggling with his/her roll.
I know no one can help me remotely with my paddling. I'll be stepping down to the basics (even back to flatwater) this spring.
I'm also thinking of creating kind of setup to attach my camera to video myself working flatwater, judging myself, or have others judge my paddling.
I see a lot of sloppiness in my paddling that I didn't see a couple months ago. Back then I was happy I made that small eddy. Now I make it, but I hate the way I make it because some things just aren't right. This learning also brought me to the paddling style question.
I'm now at a point I realize I do a lot of things sloppy. So I have a lot of questions how to improve, how to get that sloppyness out. And most of the things I'll have to figure out myself. An instructor can point out, but I have to do it. An instructor can tell me what to do, but I still have to do it, master it. And there will be instructors pointing out and telling what to do this spring.
Anyhow, 2 topics that got out of hand while not intended so. And yes, I'm missing video to judge myself, or have others to watch my paddling. I just don't have someone on a regular basis filming my pool sessions and certainly not my flatwater sessions. I'm searching for a solution there.
oh, and last but not least, thanks to everyone for their usefull suggestions!
and maybe "a bridge to far" is not an English expression, it certainly is one in Dutch
.-
sbroam
- CBoats.net Staff
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Re: canoe club article
Cool! Y'all have some beautiful places to paddle out there.yarnellboat wrote: So anyway, this article will be up for the month of March 2009:
http://beavercanoeclub.org/
PY.
C-Boats Moderator
http://picasaweb.google.com/scott.broam/CanoeOutfitting
http://picasaweb.google.com/scott.broam/CanoeOutfitting
Although my roll is not that good: it works much better when I use just my torso muscles and legs. If I rely too much on my arms or I get my head up (to breathe, or out of panic ) I just fall right back over. To me it helps counting in my head, 1, settle in, 2, get set up correctly, 3, swing out, 4, flip body and brace up, 5, keep head low and swing head in just over gunnels. If I rush it I get sloppy and if just one part is not there I fail. Should take 5 seconds or less
To have a reliable role on the river you must have a bomb proof roll in the pool. On the river you have more distractions like turbulent water, rocks, water falls, holes, so it becomes more psychological. You have to block all that out and think about your technique. You know how to roll sooo what is the problem?
1st you probably try to rush your moves
2nd you lift your head out of the water too soon.
3rd you were not set up properly
besides rushing your moves the main reason you fail your roll is because you try to lift your head out of the water to get that breath of air. you must stop doing that.
There will be a time when you realize that you are going under so instead of trying to save what can not be saved with a brace thus doing so you go under without setting up so now you are upside down, totally lost your bearings wasting precious time and breath to set up under water. the less time you are under, the better.
you must learn when to give up the brace and go for the roll.
know how to set up for the roll .
don't waste that precious momentum, use it.
when you do your hip flick you MUST PUSH YOUR HEAD DOWN!! not up out of the water. The more you do it, the more it will make sense why you have to push your head down. Good luck.
1st you probably try to rush your moves
2nd you lift your head out of the water too soon.
3rd you were not set up properly
besides rushing your moves the main reason you fail your roll is because you try to lift your head out of the water to get that breath of air. you must stop doing that.
There will be a time when you realize that you are going under so instead of trying to save what can not be saved with a brace thus doing so you go under without setting up so now you are upside down, totally lost your bearings wasting precious time and breath to set up under water. the less time you are under, the better.
you must learn when to give up the brace and go for the roll.
know how to set up for the roll .
don't waste that precious momentum, use it.
when you do your hip flick you MUST PUSH YOUR HEAD DOWN!! not up out of the water. The more you do it, the more it will make sense why you have to push your head down. Good luck.
Everyone must believe in something. I believe I'll go canoeing -- Henry David Thoreau
Well, thank you all folks.
What I learned over the time, that a bomb-proof pool roll is not always a bomb proof roll, even on the lake, wearing pfd and other paddling gear.
So there was my first problem. (too much arm, too few leg and torso action)
I now have the luck for 2 weeks, to be able to do 2 pool sessions a week. Last wednesday I finally got the feeling of real good knee-action. So I hope to nail that down in the next 3 sessions. At that time i think I can talk bomb-broof pool-roll.
Then I can take it to the river. Hopefully making my first river-rolls this summer. I'll come back to this thread of plenty good suggestions and tips what to do to make your roll out on the river.
But first I should get that knee action working.
What I learned over the time, that a bomb-proof pool roll is not always a bomb proof roll, even on the lake, wearing pfd and other paddling gear.
So there was my first problem. (too much arm, too few leg and torso action)
I now have the luck for 2 weeks, to be able to do 2 pool sessions a week. Last wednesday I finally got the feeling of real good knee-action. So I hope to nail that down in the next 3 sessions. At that time i think I can talk bomb-broof pool-roll.
Then I can take it to the river. Hopefully making my first river-rolls this summer. I'll come back to this thread of plenty good suggestions and tips what to do to make your roll out on the river.
But first I should get that knee action working.
Re: canoe club article
You're missing the first step to get into the low brace position where you do the hip snap. You either have to flip the paddle or rotate you shaft hand.
yarnellboat wrote:Influenced in part by the recent discussion on here, I wrote a little 3-step article on rolling for my canoe club's newsletter.
Rolling is a relatively new concept to the recreational ww canoeists in BC, and many people, especially the veteran crowd, remain uninterested on unsure about the value of rolling (some even argue that rolling a canoe is a bad/unsafe idea altogether and are against rolling, but let's just ignore that concept and not even get started with that debate).
The article isn't perfect. It's purpose is to get class II paddlers interested, not for detailed analysis from class IV+ creekers, so take it for what it's worth. It's written largely based on watching some friends learn to roll this winter.
A summary of the technique in the article might be this:
Keep your face in the water, square with your shoulders, looking straight down (i.e., don't turn your head towards the bow/surface too early; so, maybe it is like golf - some version of "keep your eye on the ball"). We observed that turning your head seemed to be a big factor in failed rolls.
So anyway, this article will be up for the month of March 2009:
http://beavercanoeclub.org/
PY.
-
yarnellboat
- C Maven
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- Location: Winnipeg
- Contact:
Thanks for the feedback, I'll keep it in mind if there's an opportunity to revise the article.
The instructions were written more for those have already tried rolling, and already have the basic set-up down, but are just having trouble completing their rolls with confidence.
Although Thrill of the Paddle does a pretty good job, I think it's too hard in print to explain the mechanics of rolling to people who don't even know where to begin. Like many things, I think getting started is the hardest step. To get the basics requires more than a newsletter article or web discussion... like a boat with good outfitting, some water and a friend/instructor.
PY.
The instructions were written more for those have already tried rolling, and already have the basic set-up down, but are just having trouble completing their rolls with confidence.
Although Thrill of the Paddle does a pretty good job, I think it's too hard in print to explain the mechanics of rolling to people who don't even know where to begin. Like many things, I think getting started is the hardest step. To get the basics requires more than a newsletter article or web discussion... like a boat with good outfitting, some water and a friend/instructor.
PY.