Advice for Mohawk canoes

[Craig Smerda]

http://www.cafepress.com/slalomcanoes.14776788

he sent me one of those last year during the holidays... it was stamped demo & blem on the stern.

the cheap bastard









o.k. that's enough derailment of this thread for me... for now.

[Walsh]

Being in my mid-twenties, I'm practically in diapers as far as open boaters go, but the crusty old paddlers who I consider my mentors paddled Vipers and Shamans pretty much exclusively. I've seen composite Shamans, and that seems like a boat that would be very appealing. I would also hate to see the Probe 14 disappear - it's a hot rod for lighter tandem teams, and I love mine.

Not sure why all the clamoring for a shorter boat, but no mention of either the Maxim or the Rodeo. Is there any chance either of those designs could be tweaked and offered in a tupperware variety? If the Zoom has seen so much popularity, why not the Maxim? They're very similar designs - short, flat, and bulbous.

It really seems that materials are the sticking point; the community is really anxious to move to something stiffer and stronger than Royalex. Folks definitely demonstrated a 'willingness to pay' for Twin-tex when it came out. I appreciate that we're asking a really tall order of Mohawk's R&D department - you guys are just getting the older molds and tools back up and running, and here we're asking for new designs in hypothetical materials. As a work of encouragement, I'm someone else with with a sentimental attachment to Mohawk. Quebec's got a rich canoe heritage, but so has the Southeast. I'd love to see Mohawk put the US back on the map as far as canoes are concerned.

[jnorto01]

If the Zoom has seen so much popularity, why not the Maxim? They're very similar designs - short, flat, and bulbous.

Comparing a Zoom to a Maxim is like comparing a Porsche 911 turbo to a VW Beetle. They are both about the same size, but there is no comparison with the hull speed. The Zoom is WAY faster.

[Louie]

Zoom ain't like much else it is very fast and if you ain't goin fast you are in trouble, I don't know if the Maxion is a VW but the zoom is a porsch or a masserrottie

[Nate]

I spend quite a bit of time paddling with Harold Deal the designer of the Shaman, and he often uses a composite one that is manufactured by Hemlock to fit race specs (13'2''), if you are interested.

[ohioboater]

I have to agree with kaz about not equating online enthusiasm with future sales.

[jscottl67]

Yeah, build a better mouse trap and...pray for serious mouse issues.

There's definitely a conservative side to canoe purchases (in general) and even "beginner" boats will do more than most of us will ever really need to do. I mean, you could put a recliner in a Genesis and take a nap through some pretty ugly stuff. And how many posts are there on this board on how to repair damaged boats?

I think most of the recommendations here are tweaks of existing boat designs, not a radical departure. For the most part (there are exceptions), pulling elements that worked from existing designs and tweaking them is what everyone does.

Unless we start giving advice like "yeah...pour 2 gallons of acetone in the bottom of that Genesis and leave it overnight..that will loosen up the old saddle and D-rings", there isn't going to be a mass rush for new boats

[Dooleyoc-1]

You have to come out with new designs to be relevant. When did the Viper 11 come out? 1993? (it is still a good boat don't get me wrong)

How many kayak companies are selling 1993 designs?

Esquif is doing a good job of pushing out new designs and from what I can tell they are the market leader in whitewater canoe sales.

I think it is clear that people are interested in shorter boats and more durable materials (as evidence the Zephyr has been esquifs best selling boat several years in a row; people thought twintex would be durable)

If you want to be relevant you need to design a 9-10' traditional canoe in plastic in a similar style to the prelude or Robson Homes

[sbroam]

How does that Old Town crosslink stuff hold up? What are it's characteristics? I was thinking it wasn't as stiff as Royalex, but maybe less of an issue in a smaller boat? Molding method?

[ohioboater]

Do you mean this stuff?

http://www.oldtowncanoe.com/canoes/anat ... link3.html

In tandem boats, it's bloody heavy - 85 - 100 lbs for a 17 foot boat. Most of the older Discos I see are severely oil canned, sometimes in a series of ripples along the flattish bottom, but they do seem to hold up to years of rental abuse in shallow rivers without delaminating.

Old Town makes a 12 foot solo boat in this material. I paddled one once. The design was horrible, but the weight wasn't bad. Quoted weight is 45 lbs, I think. If that's accurate, then I'd expect a 10 foot WW boat to weigh about the same before outfitting.

I wonder if anyone has ever considered seeing if they'd license the technology. They certainly don't seem to have any interest in making any real WW boats themselves.

[sganarelle]

The Discovery 169's are as previously stated stupid heavy. As for durability I guess it is a toss up.

Just as many of those boats needed repair as the royalex boats. The usage was primarily 14+ day canoe trips where portaging and tamer whitewater with gear. The campers who used them were 14-18 year olds and the counselors. the older counselors who remembered the MRC Revelations have generally hated the wieght of the crosslink 3.

The canoe repairers have found certain types of damage harder to repair. Tears were some what easier while punctures were difficult. the welding was miserable.

The wavyness on the bottom generally came from repeated exposure to sunlight summer after summer on the racks. It would go away after a while when being used.

The boats at camp get abused, all in all i felt the crosslink 3 held up decently well if you wanted a retarded heavy boat.

The crosslink3 to me appears heavier and durable in a different way compared to royalex. My experience was that the crosslink3 was stiffer and therefore prone to more flex type damage where the royalex would give and resist a bit better.

A crosslink3 boat would be interesting.

[Randy Dodson]

Old Town's Crosslink is PE with a foam core. So you'd still have the problems of not being able to glue in outfitting unless you polarize it with a propane torch. the only way to keep it from oilcanning in a WW boat would be with a bulkhead or a full saddle with thwarts attached at both ends like the single layer PE of a Prelude.

Speaking of Old Town, does anyone know if they did anything different to their Royalex boats. I've got an eleven year old Oltanar Royalex Old Town Cascade (a shorter Appalacian) that has held up better than any other royalex boat I've ever owned. Including boats from other manufacturers from the same time period.

[pblanc]

The crosslink poly disco stuff actually seemed to me to be more prone to abrasion damage at the stems than Royalex, and harder to repair.

[sbroam]

Interesting feedback on the OT material. A friend of mine bought one [clarification - an Old Town canoe made of that material] second hand. It had been repaired with the kit OT sells (fiberglass) but the previous owner didin't want to do it himself - he took it to a local motor boat type place and had them do it - the repair was almost invisible. You could just detect the different shade of green where the paint was. That's about the extent of what I've seen aside from the occasional livery boat.

I was thinking about it being used in a small whitewater boat, but I guess you might as well go rotomolded.

[Sam]

Thanks again for all the input. We have taken note of all of it, (including the warnings ) and will factor it into the future path of the company.

Getting some new models out there is indeed something we would love to do, even if it might take us a little bit longer to bring to the market than a lot of us would like. We are looking into dealing with the other major issue and hope that this will be something that grabs all of your attention in the less distant future.

One things I can say you will be seeing more of is Mohawk at demo days and the like. We've been back on the water for a couple of years now; we're working to make that an unavoidable reality in the coming years!