Boat Turnover Grinds to a Halt

TonyB · Post by **TonyB** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 2:45 am

if I new all you had to do was call Louie, hey Louie ya got another??????

hey Chris dont you all ready have a plastic boat?

Eric Nyre · Post by **Eric Nyre** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 3:33 am

A few years ago the price of new boats jumped. Gone are the days when you could get a new boat and outfit it for $800.

When boats were fairly cheap, the supply flowed freely. People were buying new and selling their old every year or two. Now that boats are higher priced, people are sitting on them much longer.

There is some trading happening within paddling groups, but most boats that hit the open market are either higher priced or mostly dead.

Louie · Post by **Louie** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 12:15 pm

Well the 99 year old on life support with a feeding tube has "some life left in them".

I have two that would require some major work to them, but could be brought back to a productive and meaningfull life. One is a hunter green color, only four of that color ever made and I owe or have owned all four. I also still have a baby blue one that is one of the five blue ones ever built, I owned four out of the five of those, Doopey ended up with one of those from the factory, not sure how that happened.

If you want to cll me we can talk about the Ocoees 803 319 1719, 865 388 0915, 865 986 9993

Mr.DeadLegs · Post by **Mr.DeadLegs** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 2:14 pm

I do think the best picking for open boats is with those that no longer paddle. The demographic for our sport is ageing, that generation that started after watching that georgia love story, Deliverance, has gotten old. They either are not buying new boats and therefore not trading out the old ones, or they are happy with the design they have and don't care about new ones. I still see ME's and the occasional OCA on the Chattooga. There are some hoarders out there like Louie and OC1paddler, but their stocks are whittling down. Maybe when these old boats are fully retired the manufacturers can start making money on open boats again.

And yes I paddle a fossil, but look forward to swimming with a new boat soon!

Dooleyoc-1 · Post by **Dooleyoc-1** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 2:14 pm

A couple of points:

-One guy mentioned that you can't order new rotomolded plastic canoes now. That's not correct. You can order Esquif Preludes and Spanish Flys since they bought the molds from Pyranha. I paddled my Esquif Prelude on the Little River in the Smokies Monday after work

-I am very excited about getting a new Esquif L'Edge.

-Even though new boats cost more it helps the canoeing industry to buy new boats. Esquif, Bell, Mohawk and Mad River have to sell canoes to stay in business and have the confidence in the market to invest in R&D to bring new models out like the L'Edge

-Used boats can be great too. A lot of my first boats were used. However, now I do so much creeking and abuse my canoes doing rock spins, boofs, rock splats, freewheels etc. that I need new boats in order to get enough days out of them and then nobody wants mine when I'm done with them (except for John Duncan who I've promised to sell one of my destroyed prelude hulls to

)

Mr.DeadLegs · Post by **Mr.DeadLegs** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 2:33 pm

Dooley, with new boats at 12 to 15 hundred dollars, and the bulk of boats being made of royalex, how is the average boater able to afford a new boat every year or so? The boating industry has held onto royalex or a royalex type material for how long now 15-20 years. Creeking kills royalex. I see that this may help the bottom line of the boat manufacturers, but this material needs to be used on flatwater boats. If you get a pro discount it may not matter, but for the average paddler we need more boats out of a material that will hold up, a new boat every year is not in my budget. Esquif is on the right track and it seems as though Mohawk is listening, hopefully with something new on the horizon. For now I will spend a few hundred dollars on a beater that I can patch togather rather than spend a grand and a half for something that won't last two years.

Esquif seems to have the right idea in introducing new designs. Since we lost Frankie it seems as though innovation and new designs stagnated, I hope that has changed.

Craig Smerda · Post by **Craig Smerda** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 4:18 pm

fwiw and imo... an 11-12ft open boat made out of PE might be seen as "too heavy" by some consumers and not all rivers are paddled with lower flow or are getting banged off rocks every 6.332 seconds... that's why a lot of manufacturers still utilize royalex... that and the overall production costs are lower which is why the price of a royalex boat in the past 10 years hasn't really been affected by inflation that much. Most manufacturers cost increases are the same as our own in daily life... heat/electricity... fuel costs... insurance... etc. etc. etc. I'd be willing to bet the margins today being made are far more lean than back in the early-mid nineties. There's really nothing wrong with royalex if you aren't beating the tar out of it. I'd venture to guess on rivers like the Ocoee, Lower Yough and Ottawa you could get many good years out of a royalex canoe... running the Green, Upper Yough or doin' BC Creeking... not so much. I prefer PE boats because I like running stuff where rock is involved... and I'm not one to pamper my equipment.

Innovation, new ideas and new materials cost money... lot's of it... and sometimes the learning curve to get the processes right are steep and costly. I give ton's of credit to Robson and Esquif for even trying to produce boats in twintex/armorlite... I've seen how it's done... and considering the cost of a mold at $30K USD... that's a pretty big gamble if you are wrong. If Mohawk is working on something revolutionary... my hat's off to them as well... it's takes courage to get into this business folks.

You want to feel as nervous as a long tailed cat in a room full of rocking chairs? Design a boat that's attempting to emulate that of one of your favorite designers... and then hope it's not a flop or complete failure... I've had to deal with a lot of uneasiness and self-doubt for a long time... and it wasn't my personal money even being put on the line to get to the stage we're at now... that's balls... commitment and belief in what you are doing from the manufactures part... and Jacques to his credit has done it with a slew of ww-boats. I was nervous just staring at the $1K block of stryrofoam before we cut into it... but will he or they keep on doing this? I guess that's up to me and you.

Now... who has a used mint condition Spanishfly they want to sell me for $100?

Louie · Post by **Louie** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 5:37 pm

What color and I won't take less than $175.00.

BTW I can understand you selfdoubt comment, think how the rest of us who know you feel.

Craig Smerda · Post by **Craig Smerda** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 5:42 pm

Louie wrote:BTW I can understand you selfdoubt comment, think how the rest of us who know you feel.

Should we tell them about ALB yet?

ain't
Louie's
boat

(get out your top secret internet word finding decoder mouse for this 'un!!!)

jscottl67 · Post by **jscottl67** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 5:50 pm

Craig Smerda wrote:fwiw and imo...

Now... who has a used mint condition Spanishfly they want to sell me for $100?

Hmmm...for $100, you might get mint flavored spanish fly.

Dooleyoc-1 · Post by **Dooleyoc-1** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 5:56 pm

Mr. Dead Legs,

I agree. Buying royalex boats year after year gets old fast. That's why I have mainly paddled skeeters, flys and preludes for the last 10 years. Esquif has the right idea. The L'Edge looks really good.

Also, I agree with Craig. For longer boats plastic is too heavy. I like having the Spark in royalex (I just try not to creek in it too much and I make sure the creeks are running high when I do take it creeking). I also like the Caption in royalex. Same deal. For big voume rivers and multi-day camping trips or for paddling tandem on runs with good flow.

Dooley

Craig Smerda · Post by **Craig Smerda** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 6:10 pm

Dooleyoc-1 wrote:For longer boats plastic is too heavy.
Dooley

How many of you have ever seen a Royalex EDGE? They made them... people hated them and didn't buy them because they were too heavy at 13'-2" compared to the carbon/kevlar hot-rods everyone was used to.

I'm thinking 10'-6" is about the max length I'd want to go in a PE OC1... but people would have to be keenly aware that there would be a weight penalty for far greater long-term durability. How much weight... I dunno.

edit... I do look forward to comparing the production weight of an "open" L'edge to a Zoom or similar length boat like a Phantom or ??? down the road... maybe it isn't all "that much"... maybe it is?

Mr.DeadLegs · Post by **Mr.DeadLegs** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 6:37 pm

How has twintex held up? I have heard the stories of it cracking, but that seems reperable. What about abrasion resistance? Is this a dead material or is it just too expensive to mold/build?

Craig Smerda · Post by **Craig Smerda** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 6:52 pm

Mr.DeadLegs wrote:How has twintex held up? I have heard the stories of it cracking, but that seems reperable. What about abrasion resistance? Is this a dead material or is it just too expensive to mold/build?

It's a really good material... I just wouldn't plan on overly abusing it. I've seen a few Zephyr's hold up to our "red granite" rivers pretty well... but none of them have been dropped 15 feet onto 3" of water with rock underneath it. My take... paddle a Twintex boat the same way you would a Royalex version... +1

2opnboat1 · Post by **2opnboat1** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 7:47 pm

Here at Mohawk we have a healthy supply of used or blem boats.

By the way i have about 6 boats in my personal stable

richard

C-Forum

Boat Turnover Grinds to a Halt

lack of used boats