Favored hull design for Rotomold C1

Craig Smerda · Post by **Craig Smerda** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 4:44 pm

cadster wrote:For a historical perspective, I went to a C1 Concordia in the mid-90's and Andy Bridge was asking the same question and getting very similar responses.

If Andy couldn't get a new design made then, I doubt it'll happen now unless the manufacturing costs have come down.

Andy designed the Atom didn't he?

Molds and tooling are what's really spensive... that's the hangup... to get your money back you'd have to sell a lot of em

cadster · Post by **cadster** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 4:53 pm

See
http://www.cboats.net/c_db/list.php?typ ... &name=Atom

I must have had the year wrong for the Concordia that I went to. It was probably in 2000,

Larry Horne · Post by **Larry Horne** » Thu Jul 16, 2009 2:45 am

I keep hearing that a kayak will never make a perfect c1..
c1's will never be perfect either untill somebody takes more than one crack at it...I think it takes quite a few attempts before a great design is nailed, and that just doesn't happen with c1's. how many boats did fink design...one? Marko? 1.3? Practice makes perfect.

All of the c1 specific designs I've paddle are seriously flawed in some way or another.

The wheelboy paddles great but the cockpit is so small I can't wear shoes in it. Because of that, I only paddle that boat a couple times a year.

I've never paddle one, but it sounds like the shaggy designs are great. but I bet they have a small cockpit.

...the fink definately has it's share of problems.

I guess the cascade was good back in the day...
but I paddled one for just a few minutes and it felt like a pig compared to my viper open boat.

The atom just plain sucks. end of story

One common problem with all of them is the small cockpit. It's completely unnecessary and I think it's unsafe. Honestly, if a new c1 came out and it had a small cockpit, I wouldn't buy it no matter how good it paddled.

OK rant over

BTW...for me, and my paddling style, the large burn is the perfect c1.

Kelvin · Post by **Kelvin** » Thu Jul 16, 2009 8:43 am

Hi Folks,

My vote would be for a river runner with a planing hull. I river run in either a Zoom or a Remix 69, apart from acceleration and manoeuvrability the Remix doesn't touch the Zoom in performance. I'm considering a Dagger Axiom, I'm not too concerned about the lower volume stern as this can be used to an advantage in a C1. Just not too sure how it would be when things get a little hectic!
At 70kg (155lb) the Remix 69 may be a little big, maybe that's why the edges are not engaging as they should. My next river running C1 will either be a Remix 59 or a Axiom.
As for play boats I paddle a Dragorossi Fish, my previous boat was a Wheelboy. I don't see what the big deal is with this hull, sure it spins and wheels well but it has no edges! Replace the stepped rail with a crisp edge
and a side wall and this would be a cool boat.

To answer the question, my ideal plastic C1 would very similar to an Axiom with a little more volume in the stern.

Take it easy,

Kelvin.

angelamsig · Post by **angelamsig** » Thu Jul 16, 2009 2:58 pm

Make it a basic river runner. I liked the Atom except it's slow and it
dives. So make it fast and with with higher volume in the front.

And have it come with good basic outfitting! I want to paddle not
fiddle around with glue and foam. Again I liked the Atom
outfitting. I didn't have to change a thing. Just played with using
or not using the hip pads. Which I decided weren't worth the
trouble/weight given my paddling style. Have a skirt ready.
I want to walk into the store and then head directly to the river.

I'm not sure about having different sizes. Nice idea but seems
like a money loser. So go for big.

I'm interested in a Fink but where are they? I have to drive to
the west coast to find one? Special order it? And then apparently
the outfitting is so bad I have to fool with that? No thanks! Sounds
like too much trouble for a part-time paddler.

Kayak shopping must be like walking into a candy store...

If anyone has a Fink for sale within 3 hours of the DC metro area
send me an email!

Angie

insolence · Post by **insolence** » Sat Jul 18, 2009 6:50 pm

I agree to most of you - there are enough useful playboat kayaks that make a nice conversion.
As far as riverrunners ans creekers are concerned, I think a C1 specific design would make a lot of sense. Of course no boat can meet all paddlers wishes and needs - such as the finkenmeister for example according to most peoples telling is a boat for those who love an active and technique-based padling style.

I do love that, but can't paddle it since it is way too big for me. But I find it hard to find a kayak conversion that performs well as a C1, is fast and responsive enough and provides still some safety - AND is small enough - so I'd apperciate a well - founded riverrunner that comes in several sizes

semdoug · Post by **semdoug** » Sun Jul 19, 2009 11:21 pm

For a river runner I would modernize the old Gyramax. Don't know why but I liked the Gyramax for river running. Yes it was kind of a pig boat, but it was stable and predictable with good gear carrying capacity.

I'd like to see about 12-15 inches taken off both ends and round them off. Maybe add a little volume forward.

For the cockpit I'd like to retain the general C1/C1XL sized cockpit rim but make the rim angled with a downward slope from forward to rear. I think this would help in the small cockpit size issues some paddlers, myself included, have while not requiring a custom skirt.

For outfitting I'd like to see a stapless option. It's time to move on from straps. Maybe something similiar to the Slasher's thigh system but with more adjustability along with hip braces/pads. And of course there would be room for straps if needed.

I also think the Millbrook Amoeba would be a decent prospect if rotomolded.

Kelly-Rand · Post by **Kelly-Rand** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:00 am

I like my Atom, but it is slower than my glass boats. I would like a slightly longer Atom with sharper chines. I wouldn't change anything else. I never found that it dives and if it does start to pearl I just lean back. I can drive into a pour over and do an ender but I don't call that diving. it will sink in a foam pile behind the hole you just drove through but that is just part of runnin rivers. So if you had sharper chines and another 6 to 8 inches on it I think the speed would increase to a more acceptable level as well as the carrying capacity.

River running is coming back, I can see it in the eyes.

Craig Smerda · Post by **Craig Smerda** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 3:38 am

Kelly-Rand wrote:River running is coming back, I can see it in the eyes.

yup

There will always be a time and place for me to play in the C1 & collection of sub 9ft OC's I've accumulated... but the new boat has really got my juices flowing again in regards to using more of the river than anything else I've been in for quite some time. Sure... playin's fun... but so is making all of the eddies, ferries and attainments again.

Kelly-Rand · Post by **Kelly-Rand** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 10:29 am

Would it be possible to make a mold that you could put a liner in to make a shorter boat with less volume. A river runner shape is pretty simple so if the top of the mold never changed, the most complex half, and the bottom half was a series of inserts that interlocked to make the length volume changes you would have some economy in making different sizes. I watched the Fluid video but there wasn't any coverage on how the mold is made.

Post by **sbroam** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 12:19 pm

Kelly-Rand wrote:...So if you had sharper chines and another 6 to 8 inches on it I think the speed would increase to a more acceptable level as well as the carrying capacity....

Sounds like a Slasher!

Kelly-Rand · Post by **Kelly-Rand** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 12:07 am

The slasher had no volume compared to the atom front or back. I could never fit in one. The Atom had about a 4.5 in sidewall that rolls gently into the bottom profile. This transition I would like to sharpen. The slasher has almost no sidewall. What prompted this idea was a kayak I saw on the river Sunday. It looked like a slalom boat but it was very different from other kayak slalom boats I have seen. It had sidewalls and a very sharp chine. And the paddler was just tearing up the river. He was good and the boat just looked like fun. It looked like it was in the 11 foot range for length.

TheKrikkitWars · Post by **TheKrikkitWars** » Sat Aug 01, 2009 12:53 am

Personally I'm on the lines of a Jefe/Habitat being a great conversion (I guess the nomad would too, but I've got to sell that to my father as a butt boat if I stop paddling it). So I can see no reason why a rounded hull boat with soft chines, an oval cockpit and less stern volume than the equvalent kayak wouldn't be my perfect C1 river/creek boat.

To renforce the point about the cockpit shape the normal C1 cockpit shape is unsafe as it means in the event of a vertical pin I have to fists pop my straps, then pull my body up to get out of the dash, then drop forwards and free my feet from under the back deck. If you were to change it to a 1.8:1 length:width ratio then my feet would be beneath the back part of my sprayskirt, and when I released my straps and leant forwards, I'd be free of the boat. I wouldn't paddle a round cockpit boat on anything genuinely challenging.

the great gonzo · Post by **the great gonzo** » Wed Aug 05, 2009 3:47 pm

About cockpit shape, never had any problems escaping the Finkenmeister cockpit, which is round, even that one time I ended due to stupidity

, up in an undercut on the Middle Fork. If the straps in it are set up properly it is possible to get out without opening them. Pull the skirt, slide back over the saddle back rest, then forward and out I am. And I have realy long legs, 36" inseam. Cockpit depth and width are just as important as length, if not more so.
I have had difficulty getting my feet out from underneath cockpits of conversions, due to the low rim in the back of K-boats cockpits.
I have also had trouble getting them past hip pads in conversions, due to the narrowness.

As far as a riverrunner like the Atm is concerned, that has a strong slalom boat influence, I firmly believe that a lot of the performance gets lost when they are made in plastic and suddenly gain 15 lbs of weight and have the stiffness of a wet noodle, when compared to a composite boat. I wouild love to ry one of the few compossite Atoms that were built, I am sure they vastly outperfornm the plastic ones. The same is true for playboats, try a Shaggy or other composite boat.

As far as I am concerned, plastic is for creeking, composite for everything else.

TGG!

BTW, PAC has custody of my Shaggy Pagan, so if anyone wants to try it on the LY, get in couch with him, I am sure he'll help you out.

Post by **sbroam** » Wed Aug 05, 2009 3:59 pm

What I like about the Sith and Ceemweaver cockpits is that they are round but that my heels were not under the back deck. The Sith didn't *look* large, but because of the shape it was very user friendly with a minimum of excess skirt. The Ceemweaver is pretty big, but with the saddle centered.