C-1 Roll vs. Kayak

Mikey B · Post by **Mikey B** » Wed Aug 26, 2009 1:28 am

Ok, so a couple of kayaking friends were over tonight practicing rolls, and I eventually got talked into trying to roll their Kayaks. Holy crap! The hip snap is like an Elvis move and I couldn't coordinate the timing right at all...kept wanting to swing out to 90 and snap. Just couldn't quite get one. So then I jokingly said I was going to do a hand back deck roll and son of a gun if I didn't do it on the first try. Way easier to do the hip snap. Anyhoo, I always thought their rolls looked easier but found out they are harder than they look. But at least they couldn't even come close to rolling my boat

Kept saying "I don't see how you paddle that tippy thing"...quite obviously they haven't seen me paddle it

playboater06 · Post by **playboater06** » Wed Aug 26, 2009 1:59 am

Ok. I am a kayak convert. how is the C1 hip snap different? Cause I am starting to get really frustrated trying to roll my dam C1 and OC1.

Mikey B · Post by **Mikey B** » Wed Aug 26, 2009 2:15 am

well for me anyways, the big difference is in the canoe roll I swing out into 90 degrees from boat and the hip snap is more of a hard push with my offside knee and then pulling my onside knee to my nose type movement. More of a pulling the boat under you type feel.
I do a sort of hip snap motion before the pushing/pulling of the knees though. My kayaker buds said their hip snaps were doing nothing...and they didn't appear to be. But I wonder if it's more of a muscle memory thing with trying to do what you're used to which didn't seem to translate well.
But anyway, I know for me in the canoes it feels more like I'm pulling the boat under me with my knees and the kayak roll was definitely a hip snap (well for the 4 hand rolls I did)...which I couldn't time the snap right when trying the type of roll they were trying to get me to do.
Make any sense?
Maybe some of the guys on here who can do both can elaborate.

Marc Evans · Post by **Marc Evans** » Wed Aug 26, 2009 3:22 am

At one of last springs pool sessions I got into a kayak for the first time. Man, talk about stable and easy to control - though I didn't know what to do with the extra blade. I even have an old school kayak, but never had been in it (it was a gift from my brother in law). Anyway, I'm on a 7 day trip and the kayaker in the group asked if I wanted instruction in rolling the kayak. Heck, my son could roll it and he has as much time in it as I did. So, what the heck. Bottomline, I had no KAYAK HIP SNAP. Nothing!

The canoe roll relies more on a gut crunch than a hip snap. Seemed to be different muscles and different muscle memory.

I'll stick with canoes!

AYockey · Post by **AYockey** » Wed Aug 26, 2009 3:23 pm

I would definitely agree that the c1 roll seems much more fluid and continuous with no real hip snap and only a crunch as described above. While the standard kayak roll is more of a set up and then an explosion to get yourself up. Of course I learned the ancient c to c roll in the kayak not the new fangled sweep roll or whatever they call it.

AYockey · Post by **AYockey** » Wed Aug 26, 2009 3:24 pm

I would definitely agree that the c1 roll seems much more fluid and continuous with no real hip snap and only a crunch as described above. While the standard kayak roll is more of a set up and then an explosion to get yourself up. Of course I learned the ancient c to c roll in the kayak not the new fangled sweep roll or whatever they call it.

pblanc · Post by **pblanc** » Wed Aug 26, 2009 4:28 pm

I find rolling a kayak to be vastly easier than rolling a C1 or OC1, which is, no doubt, evidence that my C roll is crappy.

I agree that, at least for the open boat roll, the motion is much more like an abdominal crunch than a sudden lateral torso flexion as in a kayak. I think there is a greater need to focus on driving the offside knee down in addition to pulling up with the onside knee and, especially in an open boat, the roll happens more slowly with a sense of pulling the boat underneath you.

I taught myself to roll an open boat in a lake years ago with the help of Bob Foote's video. When I later tried rolling a kayak for the first time, I was successful on the first attempt, although I was muscling up with my arms too much.

As time went on, I think my kayak roll wrecked what open boat roll I had. I started rushing the roll too much and stopped focusing on driving the paddle shaft down with my forehead, and driving my offside knee down.

fleckbass · Post by **fleckbass** » Wed Aug 26, 2009 5:09 pm

It may be helpful to me if some can describe where the upper body, head are when the offside knee is driven down and the onside knee is driven up. I'm guessing chest and head down until the boat is just about righted then a forward lean across the airbag.

John Coraor · Post by **John Coraor** » Wed Aug 26, 2009 6:15 pm

AYockey wrote:I would definitely agree that the c1 roll seems much more fluid and continuous with no real hip snap and only a crunch as described above. While the standard kayak roll is more of a set up and then an explosion to get yourself up. Of course I learned the ancient c to c roll in the kayak not the new fangled sweep roll or whatever they call it.

Actually, it is the kayak sweep roll that is older than the C to C roll. It's so old that it has recently come back into fashion again. However, back in the 70s when I taught myself to roll a kayak from reading the AMC Whitewater Handbook, almost everyone did a sweep roll. Hades, when I dusted off my decades-old kayak roll to teach my kids a a few years ago and compared notes with other "instructors," I realized that I didn't even know what a C to C roll was!

Regarding the question of difficulty, I find rolling a kayak to be much easier than rolling a C-1. When I tried a kayak roll a couple of years ago after not rolling one for more than 25 years, it was so effective that on my first attempt I did a 520 degree roll (i.e. tipped over and rolled up so strongly that after getting upright the momentum kept me rolling until I was upside down again). I discovered that I still had a solid roll on both sides that was notably easier and more dependable than my C-1 roll, which has started to suffer from old age (reduced flexibility and an extra 70 lbs.)

John

TheKrikkitWars · Post by **TheKrikkitWars** » Thu Aug 27, 2009 12:20 am

I started C1 and Kayak rolling the same week, and find my C1 roll faster and more fluid than in a kayak; Kayaking has made me use the "converted kayak" roll more than I ough in the C1 which is great for holes and slow water, but in "epic big water", the extra stability of coming up on a low brace proves invaluable, causing me to switch my style of rolling significantly whilst I was out in Uganda.

pblanc · Post by **pblanc** » Thu Aug 27, 2009 1:40 am

What is the "converted kayak roll"? Sounds like something I should maybe try.

oc1paddlr · Post by **oc1paddlr** » Thu Aug 27, 2009 2:59 am

fleckbass, i'd say you're guessing right- i can't have my head the last thing to come up while putting weight on the offside knee. in fact, i start the roll putting all weight on the onside knee as i sweep forward with a low brace while moving upper body and head to the offside of the boat. the hip snap comes after all this is set in motion, but it does not entirely roll the boat by any means. i'm self taught, but it works for me.., but all boats are different

TheKrikkitWars · Post by **TheKrikkitWars** » Thu Aug 27, 2009 9:28 am

pblanc wrote:What is the "converted kayak roll"? Sounds like something I should maybe try.

Start like doing a screw roll in a kayak, and instead of continuing the sweep and bringing the body up on the back deck; quickly turn the blade into a low brace/power stroke (as appropriate) when it reaches 90degrees to the boat, and use the extra force to come up sitting neutral.

(It doesn't work so well in an OC1, but useful in a C1 playboat)