C-2 Roll and Outfitting

[Evelyn]

What I have:
1. An older C-2 (paddled in the 89 Worlds, hull in perfect shape)
2. A C-2 partner who's willing to train and do work on the C-2

What we don't have:
1. Proper outfitting
2. A roll

So, here's my questions:

1. Does anyone have advice on how we should go about mastering our C-2 roll in the pool this winter?

2. Advice on how to go about outfitting an old boat? We currently have wooden boards for seats and such outfitting is uncomforatable and may lead to foot entraptment. Thus, we're hoping to remove these and put in some foam seats and knee cups. We also have to install some foam walls as the boat has none (only a couple wooden blocks for support). Lastly, we should probably re-tape the seams and glass in some new thigh straps.

Anyone know where to obtain some cheap (I'm working with a college budget here...) foam and thigh straps? Advice on reinforcing a thin hull with foam walls / glass work? What glue / epoxy is best to use on glass boats? Advice on taping seams?

Thanks!

Evelyn

[aldenb]

i dont know evelyn, can we trust two kids from Hangover New Hampshire in a glass boat???
ABB

[Evelyn]

i dont know evelyn, can we trust two kids from Hangover New Hampshire in a glass boat???
ABB

An essential part of my Ivy League education is learning how to paddle whitewater while still slightly hungover.

At least I'm not planning to cut the ends off my C-2 and paddle it down the New Haven as you are!

Back to physics now... and not the physics of hydrology, unfortunately...

Evelyn

[Sir Adam]

Seams are easy-ish to do...just ask NZMatt

You'll need Seam tape (to make it easy) as well as WEST systems epoxy-you can get both from John Sweet (C boat legend himself)-
http://www.johnrsweet.com

you can also order foam from him...a bit of minicell and contact cement and you should be in good shape. You may be able to find some folks to "donate" some too if you're lucky...I'd be happy to pass some along.

For thigh straps try picking up some 2" webbing at EMS or elsewhere along with fastex buckles. Decent thigh straps, cheap. Buy a little extra webbing (or 1") to use as the anchors. Or "borrow" from your rock climbing friends

Just watch the epoxy fumes...they don't "smell" as bad as other resins, but do cause dain bramage if not used in properly ventilated areas....

If you're in Hanover you may want to contact the Mitchell's in Canaan (I suspect you already know them if you're slalom boating though). Nice people, nice paddles.

If you can't find a "local expert" on glass work to help you redo seams let me know...I'm over that way on business occasionally, and could be tempted to provide my meager assistance (I'm no expert...just someone who's been there...and is building a boat from scratch!) for an order of wings from the Colatina exit in Bradford (I used to live in that neck of the woods...).

[Evelyn]

Sir Adam,

Your help is appreciated. I do know Peggy. Quite well, actually, as I work with her on the Mascoma Race. I'll see if she has any extra supplies laying around or if she or David might be willing to help me with a roll / outfitting.

Otherwise, I'll try ordering foam, etc. If you'd be willing to help with taping, that would be great as I don't really have any experience with that. We won't be paddling the boat too much (just flatwater and pool paddling) until March, so there's plenty of time to work on her.

Thanks again!

Best,

Evelyn

[NZMatt]

OK, it's for the OC2, but there's a good section on rolling in Thrill of the Paddle by Paul Mason and Mark Scriver. They cover it for OC1 and OC2 so it might give you ideas. You can often pick this book up cheap on Ebay.

Seam work isn't too bad - definitely get a 12" stanley rasp (hope I've used the right term here - these things tend to vary around the world and I often use terms that ar right in NZ but not here in the US) for removing the old material (tip from Adam - works a charm). To do the seam itself, don't be surprised if it takes a couple of tries. I just tried my first on my own and I'll be redoing atleast half of it sometime in the future due to air bubbles (it's worse if you have a really sharp edge like on a squirt boat - on an older, rounder boat it shouldn't be so bad). For now it's paddleable and will let me try things out until it's warm enough to work on it again.

Temperature is a hassle - you need somewhere around or preferably above 60F to do epoxy work (according to the West System website). I'm working a lot of weekends at the moment, so I just bought a few boats into my lab and did the work there (just don't tell the boss). Since I work with solvents all the time, no one even queried about the smell

John Sweet is a really great guy to buy stuff off. Good prices, good advice and everything you really need. I second the 2" webbing idea - it costs about 40c a foot and 20ft should be more than enough to do two positions. The buckles will set you back about another $4. If you need any strap layout suggestions, just post and folks will be sure to help out.

Also, if you ever get down to Cornell (Ithaca, NY) for any reason, give me a buzz - we have pool sessions on most Thursday and Sunday nights and I'm always looking for an excuse to escape the lab.

Matt

[whitewaterevans]

Hello Evelyn,
My wife and I have paddled c-2 for about 18 years. We have taught many people over the years how to roll and I have outfitted many boats-decked and open. Hopefully, this will help you. We are always glad to hear about new c boaters-especially c-2!!

One of the important things about learning to roll the c-2 is for each of you to learn to roll a c-1 independently. We roll with one of us(the bow person) switching hands so that we both end up rolling on the same side.In our case, the bow person switches because the stern paddler is closer to the center of the boat, which is the strongest roll position.

After each of you learn the c-1 roll , each one should watch the other and become very familiar with the other persons timing and roll mechanics. Then, its a matter of coordinating timing-get someone to help in the pool for 2 reasons. First, so that they can help coordinate the timing (telling you that the bow/stern was too fast/slow, etc) Also, so that the helper can get you rolled up when you fail-that way you don't swim out causing exhaustion and wasted time getting back in, dumping the boat, etc.

Start off slow, counting how long it takes for the person switching hands. it usually takes the "switcher" about 1-2 seconds longer to get set up. Then both of you start your roll at the same time. It takes LOTS of practice , but it can be done.

Outfitting is a very personal thing with any c-boater. Ask 10 people and you will get 20 answers-all good and all different. We use 3" minicell and build up layers to create a block to carve into a seat. the seat is glued to the bottom of the boat. We use U shaped minicell knee cups with about 1/2" foam under them and 2" webbing for thigh straps. The thigh straps are held in by rope hangers that are epoxied to the boat hull. We also cut ankle blocks out of the minicell for comfort. All of the foam can be glued to itself or to the fiberglass with Weldwood contact cement (RED can). For making thigh strap retainers or any fiberglass work, use West System epoxy.

Send me your email address and I can send you pictures of our outfitting in various boats.

Hope this helps.
Vann Evans

[Sir Adam]

The BEST rolls I've ever seen were the perfectly timed roll Vann and Laura executed at the Concordia 4 years ago...perfect form AND perfect timing together. I seem to recall we asked them to flip so we could see it again .

[LEW]

I agree with Vann. Before you attempt the tandem roll, you both should at least have some ability to roll solo. Watch each other so that you can get a sense of what your timing will be.
When Lil'D and I started rolling our open boat, I would stay in my set-up and lift my head just enough to see above the water. I am in the stern and she switches sides. Once I can see that her paddle is set, we can then sweep out together. This is not reliable in combat, but for practice it helps develop our teamwork.

Ceeb

[KNeal]

Vann is the man when it comes to c-2 stuff. Good to hear from you, Vann. It's been quite a while. I hope you and Laura (sp?) are doing well.

Another poster to this message board is Chris Soileau (and possibly his brother, Trevor). They have raced c-2 for quite some time. Maybe he can drop a few hints on this board for you?

Kneal

[unicorn-in-captivity]

With all respect to the previous posts, here is a different approach to consider.

First let me state: every C-2 pair is different. To quote Fritz Haller: "every partner brings something different to the boat". The secret of C-2 is to make the sum greater than the parts...and this means, to study the parts and how they can best be fit together, and to respect each different strength.

And with decked C-2s, the better you are in C-1 the better you will be --"TECHNICALLY" -- in C-2. I say technically , because a C-1 is the classic individualist. To excell in C-2 requires the C-1 skill with the partnership psychology.

OK, on to rolling.
Although I have used both switchie and cross bow, I have had better success with more partners using cross-bow in C-2. I can roll a C-1 all 4 ways..either hand , normal or cross-bow. Paddling C-2 on my off-side (on the right), I can switch to my onside to give us a strong roll (compensating for my weak brace!). As a lefty C-1, I much prefer to use a cross-bow, and I have found it much faster.
The big advantage of the bow roll, especially if you have a stern partner with a strong "sweep" roll, is in the timing. The reason is that with a conventional C-1 roll, the power curve starts weak, peaks , and finishes strong ( brace position) . With the bow roll, the power goes on fast, peaks fast, and finishes weak. My method was to immediately get set, then relax completely and strain every sense to listen & feel. As soon as you sense the partner starting, slam on the power. (And should you misjudge, it is much faster to "check" without committing yourself. ) The result is to max the power at your partner's peak, where it does the most good. The weak bow-roll finish, which leaves you with a weak brace in C-1, is compensated by the strong stern-paddler finish. Switching hands takes more time, especially if the switcher goes to the "unfamiliar" side; when I did it, I found I was always lagging my partner because of the extra time to get organized. If you "go" by responding to feeling the initiator start...you are slower to catch up. The fast action of a strong bow roll chimes in at the right moment, and then you aren't switching back a second time all over again. BTW, for the stern partner, a fast C-1 roll is sometimes a disadvantage in C-2. Most C-1's strive for the fastest brace-roll: in C-2 the stern needs to slow it up, or in some cases, use a sweep windup, especally in flat or easy water

Ironically, learning to roll in the pool is the hardest case, because there is nothing to go by except feeling your partner start. But if both of you are comfortble rolling C-1 in big water, then you are nearly 100% from the start because you "know" when to wait & when to go..timing comes from the water, not the partner. A long sweep start in the stern is not as critical, because you just instinctively go when the water tells you it is time. In flatwater the drawback is, that the faster the stern rolls, the harder it is to time. The old timers, with the long wind-up, were the easiest to roll a C-2 with. The toughest partner I every rolled with was Wayne Dickert: He did a super-fast C-1 brace roll & even with a fast bow roll timing was a constant issue. OTOH, a converted K-1er who used a high brace roll was the easiest: he was easy to sense, the brace lasted forever, and if we missed, he always kept the boat up long enough so we got air for the next try....and the next...and the next...and the next.

To quote the start: every partnership is unique, and what ultmately works for you will be found by experience. But this is an alternative approach.

(BTW, C-1 also serves as a safety valve for the C-2 partnership. When you squabble in the boat, cool it off by hitting the river or the gates in C-1. Dependency is the death of C-2)

Good luck...and keep the faith!!!!!

"Wayne's partner..and John's, and Gary's and Bob's and Rays's and ....."

[Evelyn]

For the great advice!

We're a little behind some of you in that I am just mastering my pool roll this winter (didn't miss one tonight, though!) and will need to move on to a river roll from there this spring.

My partner's roll is better, though, and we've got all winter in the pool three or four times a week. After I perfect my roll, we'll see how we fare in the C-2.

Fortunately, we both C-1 frequently, so we'll be able to work on our individual strokes. We also both paddle a boat that starts with "k" but which I won't mention on this forum to avoid severe molestation and possible lynching. In any case, though, we're both versatile paddlers. Hopefully that will help!

I let you all know how our roll ends up working (or not working...) in the pool this winter and how our debut C-2 slalom season is this spring.

Best,

Evelyn