Video of why Kayaker make the worst swimmers

yarnellboat · Post by **yarnellboat** » Wed Nov 25, 2009 7:45 am

I don't know when we're talking about the video anymore and when we're not! Craig, obviously the guy in the rescue video could roll his kayak, but I assume he got stuck in a nasty hydraulic and swam. That's why I defended his swimming, he was too tired to swim anymore in that water, until he collected himself and got a clear chance.

So, yes, learn to roll, more canoeists should, no question. If you haven't tried it, go for it, if nothing else it gives you a real brace. But it wouldn't have made a difference here, because that kayaker probably has a great roll.

Louie, maybe SWR guys are all "goobs", I don't know, but there's nothing wrong with the advice to take a course and doing some learning in a controlled setting. It's not often most of us practice swimming and other rescue techniques - why carry rescue gear if you don't know how to use it? And certainly not all of us are "lucky" enough to be in "memorable" learning situations where we watch somebody save somebody's life (and if that does happen to you very often, well, maybe you want to re-evaluate your partners, style or abilities!).

Maybe this analogy will be lost in the SE, but I think of SWR training like avalanche training - I'd rather take a course from a goob and start learning something than waiting until I'm part of some real avalanches!

I think some of you who have been on the rivers lots for 30 years might be forgetting that not everyone has that much perspective/experience, gets out that often, or has good mentors, and taking a SWR is probably a great idea for most.

I don't have a lot of faith in paddling instructors, but the few rescue "goobs" I've been exposed to are serious professionals who spend 300-days a year on the river and get their experiences from things like being expert witnesses at corners' inquests etc. - they know what gets people hurt & killed (and, yes Louie - they teach agressive swimming for self rescue), and work backwards from there to knowhow people can stay out of trouble. My impression is that while anyone can pass SWR training, certified instructors in SWR tend to have real experience and useful advice. Maybe I've just been in lucky with the course I took.

Anyway, yeah, go practice your rolls everyone!

Pat.

philcanoe · Post by **philcanoe** » Wed Nov 25, 2009 1:08 pm

Was someone bad mouthing Swift Water Training... must have missed that part.

yarnellboat wrote: And certainly not all of us are "lucky" enough to be in "memorable" learning situations where we watch somebody save somebody's life (and if that does happen to you very often, well, maybe you want to re-evaluate your partners, style or abilities!)

As for the quote... To be honest in these instances I wasn't there, just watching shitt happen. I'm the rescue goob that got called in, because the real guys weren't getting the job done. Because in thirty years, some people do pick up a thing or two. And like most people, I paddle with people of all abilities. That's how you and they get better. We are not all fortunate to be the best. And if you'd like - i'll even delete my previous post (concerning your post), although I never considered it an attack on you personally. (u can simply pm me)

Louie · Post by **Louie** » Wed Nov 25, 2009 1:18 pm

well whatever but I have seen the SWR guys spending a half hour setting up a 12 to 1 ratio Z drag, have half the crew clearing a helo LZ, sending up multi color frares, while contactin the rescure squad by SAT phone, closin the river by stringing red caution tape, working franticly to untangle the massive gob of 200 caribiners, prussic ropes, safety flash card ( for on the river refresher training) and general just freakin themselves and everyone else out. Well thirty minutes into this epic and massive rescue effort, the GDI came around the bend, cuttin the red danger tape and drivin the " on site effort coordinator into fits of rage" while the rest of us were headin for the bank Bailey ask " you thing I otta go get that pod un pinned he looks like he is gettin hypothermic ?" To which we replied "ya go ahead we don't have it rolled yet" Bailey beaches his boat wades out to the guy picks up on his stearn and the guy comes loose.
The SWR guru comes over mad as hades askin Bailey if he had any idea how much danger he had put himself into by freein the guy and that we shouldn't be smokin that stuff on the river. I think Bailey reply was " you are right I could have stubbed my toe, you don't have a light do you"?

Louie · Post by **Louie** » Wed Nov 25, 2009 1:23 pm

Phil pleas deleate all you post. We find anything you say offensie and please do consider this a personal attack. BTW are boatin over the next five days?

philcanoe · Post by **philcanoe** » Wed Nov 25, 2009 1:58 pm

will know as soon as the flu passes.... never trust your buddy who says his is all gone (btw - GDI w/initials MC).. let oyu know real soon

LarryFromPittsburgh · Thu Nov 26, 2009 12:28 am

Yeah.

Larry Horne · Post by **Larry Horne** » Thu Nov 26, 2009 3:18 am

i figgered phil was sick.
cranky basturd

Crunchy · Post by **Crunchy** » Fri Nov 27, 2009 11:07 pm

you thing I otta go get that pod un pinned he looks like he is gettin hypothermic ?" To which we replied "ya go ahead we don't have it rolled yet" Bailey beaches his boat wades out to the guy picks up on his stearn and the guy comes loose.
The SWR guru comes over mad as hades askin Bailey if he had any idea how much danger he had put himself into by freein the guy and that we shouldn't be smokin that stuff on the river. I think Bailey reply was " you are right I could have stubbed my toe, you don't have a light do you"?

- Louie
That's great!
Those are the kind of people to boat with!

Mike040 · Post by **Mike040** » Sat Nov 28, 2009 11:13 am

It's pretty easy to sit at home in an armchair and pick apart something like this. The bottom line is that it's not clear from the video what happened to the guy when he came out. He could have swallowed a pile of water, could have been winded, could have taken a big knock, who knows? None of you who are criticising know.

I tend to agree with Yarnell about this, the guy looks to be in bad shape when you see him in the water. He looks like he can't move his limbs too well which suggests to me that his body has taken a pounding at the time of him coming out.

Easy with hindsight, but when the lead guy stopped in the eddy when he realised there was a problem, he could have jumped out and got a throw bag out, but again, when you're in that situation it's not that cut and dried.

I think a number of people here are being ridiculously critical about this, and would change their tune if they had been that swimmer.

Louie · Post by **Louie** » Sat Nov 28, 2009 1:45 pm

Well I tore my muscle (pecktoral ?) lose from where it is attached to something at Phil's hole on the Ottawah up in Canada. Intense pain and couldn't lift my right arm for about a month after it happened. I still have a funny deformation. I never went to the Doctor ( I did talk to a drunk MD at Andrews wedding party, he said " ya it is screwed up") Well with my one good arm and two good legs I swam like hades for the left bank or island what ever it was. The butt boater couldn't paddle fast enought to catch me before I could make it to the shore. Like I said in the original post I wasn't there and don't know the particulars, but if the guy put his swim on youtube, well that is like a open invatation to be criticed. If I am not bein PC, well whooptido. I am just callin them like I see them. I have about seven full lenght videos from the late 80's and early 90's and now with PLG havin turned out 31 in the last year and I am pretty sure I am swimmin somewhere in most. It ain't like I'm livin in a glass house and throwin rocks. All our videos are out for public view and comment so please tell old swimmim Mike to let us know what he thinks. BTW we didn't title any of them " the day Old Louie about drown" however.

Mike040 · Post by **Mike040** » Sat Nov 28, 2009 1:54 pm

Louie wrote:Well I tore my muscle (pecktoral ?) lose from where it is attached to something at Phil's hole on the Ottawah up in Canada. Intense pain and couldn't lift my right arm for about a month after it happened. I still have a funny deformation. I never went to the Doctor ( I did talk to a drunk MD at Andrews wedding party, he said " ya it is screwed up") Well with my one good arm and two good legs I swam like hades for the left bank or island what ever it was. The butt boater couldn't paddle fast enought to catch me before I could make it to the shore. Like I said in the original post I wasn't there and don't know the particulars, but if the guy put his swim on youtube, well that is like a open invatation to be criticed. If I am not bein PC, well whooptido. I am just callin them like I see them. I have about seven full lenght videos from the late 80's and early 90's and now with PLG havin turned out 31 in the last year and I am pretty sure I am swimmin somewhere in most. It ain't like I'm livin in a glass house and throwin rocks. All our videos are out for public view and comment so please tell old swimmim Mike to let us know what he thinks. BTW we didn't title any of them " the day Old Louie about drown" however.

The point is though (as I said) that we cannot see what happened either before he came out, during, or just after. So how anyone is entitled to criticise is totally beyond me. You keep saying you werent there etc, yet you still criticise anyway? Keyboard canoeing at its worst.

philcanoe · Post by **philcanoe** » Sat Nov 28, 2009 2:01 pm

... just diff'ering strokes for different folks

some won't believe anything until being there, and somewill swallow any ole thing hook-line-n-sinker... some talk about what they know, and others about what they know not... kinda makes you glad to live in a place, where you can say just about anything

C-Forum

Video of why Kayaker make the worst swimmers

RH