Why is our sport not growing any faster than it is. In the 12 years I have worked in the industry we have always wanted to know "what will make the sport grow". And this is still the question. I have been reading alot of threads and still dont have a clue. The only thing that I know is if I were a newbie and read 90% of the post I would go to a kayak. Does it really matter that someone swam; we all have and will again. How do we get young folks in the open. What will it take to push the limits of our sport.
Yes I say we because it is OUR sport, we all want new designs and new material; but how can a company spend so much money on R&D and have such a limited market base. With such a small group isn't it up to us all to further our sport
Growth of our sport
Moderators: kenneth, sbroam, TheKrikkitWars, Mike W., Sir Adam, KNeal, PAC, adamin
Growth of our sport
Richard Guin
Lazy good for nothing slacker
Lazy good for nothing slacker
Richard:
I work in the recreation industry and one thing is we battle the home game systems. Parents don't spend time with their kids in the outdoors like they used to. They work and worry to much. Two, it's an expensive sport to enter. Three it takes time and motivation to learn. Fourth and most of the problem is society, recreation and free time are not held in high regard.
The thing that might help which has helped the kayaking industry is make introductory type boats or recreation boats. Make them so they don't cost much, that are durable, and light. Set the hook for the public let bit off what they want to chew. I started off in recreation boats and moved up, but I got hooked with a rec boat(79 mohawk tandem), I then learned whitewater in an Ocoee.
I notice Mohawk makes a nice tandem for around $1000.00 let the public know. I still have a 79 Mohawk tandem and it is stilled used often.
Just my thoughts
Greybear
I work in the recreation industry and one thing is we battle the home game systems. Parents don't spend time with their kids in the outdoors like they used to. They work and worry to much. Two, it's an expensive sport to enter. Three it takes time and motivation to learn. Fourth and most of the problem is society, recreation and free time are not held in high regard.
The thing that might help which has helped the kayaking industry is make introductory type boats or recreation boats. Make them so they don't cost much, that are durable, and light. Set the hook for the public let bit off what they want to chew. I started off in recreation boats and moved up, but I got hooked with a rec boat(79 mohawk tandem), I then learned whitewater in an Ocoee.
I notice Mohawk makes a nice tandem for around $1000.00 let the public know. I still have a 79 Mohawk tandem and it is stilled used often.
Just my thoughts
Greybear
In my humble opinion, I think most of the boats out there today are too high performance for the lack of a better term, for beginners to start in.
On the West Coast, and my part of Northern California, open white-water boating is basically dead. That includes kayaks. Right now, the hot rage is sea kayaking.
I'm not even sure where one could buy a white-water canoe, locally, let alone within a 200 miles radius.
For about five years, the local university sponsored Paddlefest, and the local paddling club offered classes to teach basic paddling skills. Of course, the objective was to increase our membership, but I think in those five years, we only had three people sign up. Only one became a member. Before that, the university actually offered canoeing classes along with kayaking. They never had enough sign up for the canoeing classes, but the kayak classes were always full. I think that lasted through the late 90s.
Locally, if you consider a four-hour drive local, there is an individual that offers canoeing classes on the Klamath River. He's good at what he does, but I think they're pricey for somebody starting out on a limited budget. Otter Bar, a kayak instruction center is still hanging in there I believe.
Doesn't answer your question, but that's my two cents worth.
On the West Coast, and my part of Northern California, open white-water boating is basically dead. That includes kayaks. Right now, the hot rage is sea kayaking.
I'm not even sure where one could buy a white-water canoe, locally, let alone within a 200 miles radius.
For about five years, the local university sponsored Paddlefest, and the local paddling club offered classes to teach basic paddling skills. Of course, the objective was to increase our membership, but I think in those five years, we only had three people sign up. Only one became a member. Before that, the university actually offered canoeing classes along with kayaking. They never had enough sign up for the canoeing classes, but the kayak classes were always full. I think that lasted through the late 90s.
Locally, if you consider a four-hour drive local, there is an individual that offers canoeing classes on the Klamath River. He's good at what he does, but I think they're pricey for somebody starting out on a limited budget. Otter Bar, a kayak instruction center is still hanging in there I believe.
Doesn't answer your question, but that's my two cents worth.
thanks
The demo thing we are working on.
As far as west cost boating, canoeing has necer been big out there. THe last time that I was out west (2 yesrd ago) every state that I went to I was told that i couldn't boat something because I was in a Canoe. May not be much hope out there. Thanks for your comments and you 2 cents count along with everybody elses. Well almost everyone
As far as west cost boating, canoeing has necer been big out there. THe last time that I was out west (2 yesrd ago) every state that I went to I was told that i couldn't boat something because I was in a Canoe. May not be much hope out there. Thanks for your comments and you 2 cents count along with everybody elses. Well almost everyone
Richard Guin
Lazy good for nothing slacker
Lazy good for nothing slacker
Might be of interest to you guys - stats in the UK are that canoeing is growing at a rate of 25% p.a.
How that splits into kayak/canoe I have no idea, but I'd hazard a guess that kayaking is more popular due to manufacturing presence (ie pyranha, perception etc). Whilst small manufacturers make c1 slalom boats, there isnt the market for c1 and oc1 here, but tv programmes like ray mears northern wilderness may well make canadian canoeing more popular.
How that splits into kayak/canoe I have no idea, but I'd hazard a guess that kayaking is more popular due to manufacturing presence (ie pyranha, perception etc). Whilst small manufacturers make c1 slalom boats, there isnt the market for c1 and oc1 here, but tv programmes like ray mears northern wilderness may well make canadian canoeing more popular.
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oopsiflipped
- CBoats Addict
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- Joined: Sat Jun 03, 2006 3:32 am
boy am i gonna get crap for this....
open-boating is a niche activity that will always only appeal to a certain type of person. some people get into it because they find being in a kayak scary or because they spent too much time in the back of a raft. i was a combination of the two. other people get into it (like alot of folks on this board) because they have a background in flatwater canoeing and love the 'awesomeness' (for lack of a better word) that is canoeing. but kayaking is easier and you can progress faster, not too mention brace on both sides with the ease and not fill up with water. so with whitewater already being a small market compared to skiing or climbing and open boating a niche within that small market, expecting it to grow that much is unrealistic in my opinion. many open boaters seem to fancy themselves the iconclastic type and wouldn't probably be as attracted to open-boating if it were more popular. my 2 cents. flame away!
gabe
open-boating is a niche activity that will always only appeal to a certain type of person. some people get into it because they find being in a kayak scary or because they spent too much time in the back of a raft. i was a combination of the two. other people get into it (like alot of folks on this board) because they have a background in flatwater canoeing and love the 'awesomeness' (for lack of a better word) that is canoeing. but kayaking is easier and you can progress faster, not too mention brace on both sides with the ease and not fill up with water. so with whitewater already being a small market compared to skiing or climbing and open boating a niche within that small market, expecting it to grow that much is unrealistic in my opinion. many open boaters seem to fancy themselves the iconclastic type and wouldn't probably be as attracted to open-boating if it were more popular. my 2 cents. flame away!
gabe
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Louie
Find more lost tribes.
Get a trailer with 20 boats on it, have gear for twenty people start hittin up the boat scouts. Talk to the youth director at some of the bigger churches. Stop in on some private schools and see if they would let you teach a class. Go to the public schools and tell them you want to give a water safety talk. It would just take a lot of time and work.
Get a trailer with 20 boats on it, have gear for twenty people start hittin up the boat scouts. Talk to the youth director at some of the bigger churches. Stop in on some private schools and see if they would let you teach a class. Go to the public schools and tell them you want to give a water safety talk. It would just take a lot of time and work.
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Riverscout
- C Boater
- Posts: 40
- Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2007 2:10 pm
- Location: Westminster, MD
Here's a few thoughts. Look at what the kayak manufacturers are doing. It seems to me there are 2 areas they are targeting to grow the market. Kid specific boats and Hybrid models between rec and whitewater. These boats all seem to be resonably priced and are designed to take the paddler up to an intermediate level.
Since this isn't a sport where the parents can sit on the sideline and cheer, the only kids I really see on the river are tagging along behind their paddler parents. Now that I am a parent I am starting to focus on options to get my son out in a solo canoe. Since he's only 2 the open boat retrofit is working really well but at 5 or 6 years old I would like to start him in his own boat and save the tadem paddling for harder rivers. For a kids canoe the only option is the Splash. Never seen one and I probably won't want to spend that much on his first canoe. I could convert a kids kayak to c-1 but for safety reasons I think I prefer the open canoe, at least until he's a bit older and I know pulling a sprayskirt under pressure won't be a concern. I would consider stability, size and weight to be the most important factors in a kids boat. A lighter, less durable plastic wouldn't be bad because chances are he won't be running anything with that big an impact potential.
As far as a Hybrid boat is concerned, a good stable boat that tracks well in the flat water, isn't to long or heavy for someone to handle solo, and can handle up to class 3 would be good for the sport. It seems most of the adult open boaters are coming from flat water to whitewater so give them something they are somewhat familiar with to start. I would think something along the lines of a Mohawk Solo 13 only 11' long in a durable material.
Pete Martin
riverscout@yahoo.com
Since this isn't a sport where the parents can sit on the sideline and cheer, the only kids I really see on the river are tagging along behind their paddler parents. Now that I am a parent I am starting to focus on options to get my son out in a solo canoe. Since he's only 2 the open boat retrofit is working really well but at 5 or 6 years old I would like to start him in his own boat and save the tadem paddling for harder rivers. For a kids canoe the only option is the Splash. Never seen one and I probably won't want to spend that much on his first canoe. I could convert a kids kayak to c-1 but for safety reasons I think I prefer the open canoe, at least until he's a bit older and I know pulling a sprayskirt under pressure won't be a concern. I would consider stability, size and weight to be the most important factors in a kids boat. A lighter, less durable plastic wouldn't be bad because chances are he won't be running anything with that big an impact potential.
As far as a Hybrid boat is concerned, a good stable boat that tracks well in the flat water, isn't to long or heavy for someone to handle solo, and can handle up to class 3 would be good for the sport. It seems most of the adult open boaters are coming from flat water to whitewater so give them something they are somewhat familiar with to start. I would think something along the lines of a Mohawk Solo 13 only 11' long in a durable material.
Pete Martin
riverscout@yahoo.com
High Adventure Explorer Posts
When I lived in Cookeville Kevin Freeman and Norm Dukes had a High Adv post with ww canoeing their sport. There were close to a dozen kids, 12 to 17, who got got pretty good. They did have their own boats but most were beater boats that had been a parents (there are enough people who have old boats they could also donate them). Hubert Bennett kept boats for the regular scout schools / trips and the explorers attended the schools taking either more advanced classes and also acting as safty boaters for the scout classes. Being the leader in something like this is very time consuming but there are people who would be willing.
Bill
Bill
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Dooleyoc-1
- CBoats Addict
- Posts: 552
- Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2005 9:32 pm
- Location: TN
Two pronged marketing plan:
1) Grow open boating within the whitewater world (people that already raft, kayak or have tried canoeing)
-I would making canoes look cool. I would show them running Class IV and V and making it look good. "Real Men Paddle Open Boats". "It's easier with 2 blades" etc... You can promote this with social media: youtube videos, blogs, facebook etc... frequent posts. Mainstream exposure in the paddling world via all the magazines is a must.
-the problem with this approach is that you will only grow the sport so much but it would be a good start
2) Grow the Open Boat Market (get people that aren't paddling to try an open boat)
-here you have a different approach. You need to show bigger boats and promote the overall outdoor experience. Think pictures of tandem boats or big solo boats running beautiful class II rapids picturesque wilderness rivers
-you need to get a trailer of boats and take a B2B marketing approach and call on church groups, schools, boy scouts, summer camps, raft guides, trout fishing clubs etc...
-I would offer a raft guide discount (50% off?) and have a demo day at each major rafting outpost on the Ocoee, Nanty, French Broad and Chattooga.
-this is the real way to grow the sport. Find people that are already interested in the outdoors and introduce them to the sport. You need to do this in big boats. That is what outdoorsmen think of when they think of canoes. Nobody is going to fall in love with the sport starting off in a Skeeter (I started in a caption when i was 14 years old)
***the best thing anyone could do would be get Hollywood to make another badass mainstream whitewater canoeing movie featuring Brad Pitt and Christian Bale. The sport would double every year for the next 5 years after the movie came out.[/b]
1) Grow open boating within the whitewater world (people that already raft, kayak or have tried canoeing)
-I would making canoes look cool. I would show them running Class IV and V and making it look good. "Real Men Paddle Open Boats". "It's easier with 2 blades" etc... You can promote this with social media: youtube videos, blogs, facebook etc... frequent posts. Mainstream exposure in the paddling world via all the magazines is a must.
-the problem with this approach is that you will only grow the sport so much but it would be a good start
2) Grow the Open Boat Market (get people that aren't paddling to try an open boat)
-here you have a different approach. You need to show bigger boats and promote the overall outdoor experience. Think pictures of tandem boats or big solo boats running beautiful class II rapids picturesque wilderness rivers
-you need to get a trailer of boats and take a B2B marketing approach and call on church groups, schools, boy scouts, summer camps, raft guides, trout fishing clubs etc...
-I would offer a raft guide discount (50% off?) and have a demo day at each major rafting outpost on the Ocoee, Nanty, French Broad and Chattooga.
-this is the real way to grow the sport. Find people that are already interested in the outdoors and introduce them to the sport. You need to do this in big boats. That is what outdoorsmen think of when they think of canoes. Nobody is going to fall in love with the sport starting off in a Skeeter (I started in a caption when i was 14 years old)
***the best thing anyone could do would be get Hollywood to make another badass mainstream whitewater canoeing movie featuring Brad Pitt and Christian Bale. The sport would double every year for the next 5 years after the movie came out.[/b]
Well said
Very true Dooley hit on the head. Lets get to gather do some creek'n and see what we can tape
Richard Guin
Lazy good for nothing slacker
Lazy good for nothing slacker
I think Dooley's suggestion of approaching church groups, summer camps etc, would have the best success. Especially if some films could be shown. Starting with some scenic class 2 as a start then working thru some of the advanced stuff. If you show that you don't need to kayak to get some thrills, they might just stick with it long enough to get good without a double blade and skirt