Please explain somethings to me

2opnboat1 · Post by **2opnboat1** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 8:22 pm

why do boaters feel it is so important to be part of a greater instruction program, besides from the insurance. Is this what it takes to get respect from club members is it egp inflation or what. No disrespect to some boaters but most instructors that I have meet who love all there little tags kinda suck and I wouldn't want them to teach anyone how to paddle white water. It was told to me like this one time A canoeer is a person that shows up at the put in with a bunch of biners and multi throw ropes to paddle class 2 OPENBOATERS are the one who show up to run the SH*T .

oopsiflipped · Post by **oopsiflipped** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 8:41 pm

nothing worse to hear someone say when you have a pinned boat to deal with than 'i'm a swiftwater instructor'. good for you. i'll pull the boat off the rock while you get out your sketch board to plan your rope system...

golder · Post by **golder** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 8:47 pm

nice richard, i dig the distinction.

horizongfx · Post by **horizongfx** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 9:50 pm

I teach Open Boat instruction every year at a TVCC paddle school, (although I try real hard to get out of it every year) I Try real hard not to teach "by the book" Methods, I have no certification of any sort I just teach from real world experience, I usually have Instructors with me that have Opposing views and some that have actual "certifications" I value and encourage my students to think outside the box and take every thing I tell them with a grain of salt, and give them the basics and let them do with it what they might.
I encourage Self rescue first and foremost, and tell them they they will only learn the things I'm trying to teach them by trial and error.
I get a lot of flack from ACA instructors who think trying to teach a newbie to roll a canoe is ridiculous, Well maybe so, but thats their opinion and they're entitled to it.
Maybe I did such a bad job this year as an instructor that they'll let me off the Hook and I can go run the Ocoee and Drink beer with the GDI

I'm stepping down from the Soap Box Now...

Louie · Post by **Louie** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 9:56 pm

Don't walk away from instructing like that, I am been teachin that way for year and I will put some of my grads up again anyones. For sure people that know how to boat teahin newbie is more important than certified instructors doin it.

Now if you found a certified instructor who knew how to boat and didn't take the certified part too seriousely you would have a real winner. Please keep teachin I think you are doin fine.

jscottl67 · Post by **jscottl67** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:18 pm

I think you run the same with certifications in any field. In the IT field, I've seen people with every certification one could imagine that couldn't diagnose someone having their Num Lock off

Having certifications is neither good nor bad - it simply is.

Bruce Farrenkopf · Post by **Bruce Farrenkopf** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 11:27 pm

Teaching for a company or organization requires certification of various kinds. These organizations want their instructors to be able to formally show to customers and lawyers that they are qualified. And sure, a certicate does not mean they are more qualified than an experienced boater. It is a pain getting the certificates, but is necessary sometimes if you want to guide or instruct.
SYOTR,
Bruce

bobthepainter · Post by **bobthepainter** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 11:40 pm

I'M sorry you just haven't met any cool one's

...but there are alot of good instructors.. and having the paper hanging on the wall doesn't hurt... to me it's more of personal thing ! ...

philcanoe · Post by **philcanoe** » Tue Dec 22, 2009 1:07 am

In my experience.... I've yet to meet a instructor worth his certificate, that waved it overhead saying look at me.... look at me! The worthwhile instructors seem to have taken it in stride, and have earned a word of mouth reputation. It's the other not so worthwhile which have nothing else to fall back on, who seem to say hey me.. i can...i can... look I've got the paper.

To me the insurance factor is the real advantage in gaining/acquiring certification. For the certification process is not used to weed out the dead wood, but to only insure the herd has a checklist to follow. I know that you're learning the technique of teaching, and that's the real value or goal. However I question the value of this for a great number of people. Because just a some people are leaders and some are followers... there are some that can teach, and some that will only gain the liability insurance that they'll really need.

yarnellboat · Post by **yarnellboat** » Tue Dec 22, 2009 1:32 am

Rightly or wrongly, but understandably, a lot of new "canoeists" getting into the sport want to be part of a standardized program and 'know they're getting trained by somebody who's qualified'.

Once they're into the sport, they can go find whatever mentors or un-instructors they want, but there'll always be demand for the certified system.

I don't see anything wrong with that. The same system/logic applies to pretty much anything anyone wants to learn, not just paddling.

And one of the first important things about learning something new, is learning who you'd like to learn from, and who not-so much.

I don't get the negativity and the focus on the bad instructors, whether it's SWR or paddling - there's lots of good ones too.

What's the alternative? You propose having no curriculum or standardized instructor certification? I don't imagine that would help grow the sport much. And if the instuctional system is that messed up, well, what are you doing to make it better?

Pat.

Nate · Post by **Nate** » Tue Dec 22, 2009 3:18 am

In my experience standardized teaching is all well and good, but you don't really start to learn until you move beyond the classes. I took a couple introductory classes, but quickly just started paddling with different groups without any formal instruction. Harold Deal taught me more in a single day than all of the classes I've taken combined. He was the one who really taught me how to paddle, not classes. Formal instruction should just be seen as an introduction.

philcanoe · Post by **philcanoe** » Tue Dec 22, 2009 7:43 am

I believe we pretty much all agree... that getting advise from someone knowledgeable is best... and unless one of the chosen few, the quickest way to learn.

Lessons are invaluable, I've taken them several times in several different activities or disciplines. They are a great way to short-cut the learning process. It just happens that with paddling, I'm knowledgeable enough to be objective. And have been able to see the flaws in the ACA's instructor training program. What they (the ACA) did was take the approach of we need instructors, and it's better to have some than none. A policy that was, if we have willings bodies, it's better to bestow upon them the title of instructor. Instead of culling out the less than desirable. This often happens when you have an industry policing itself. As a result the whole training program became suspect, they forgot you're only as good as your weakest link. That was actual policy... I've ranted behind closed doors on this before... and told that was a past mind set. That the errors of the past had been addressed.

And - What am I doing.... this is what I'm doing. Speaking up in public, to a like minded group of aficionados. To a group of open boaters, that can make a difference. Some times it's better to bring the air dirty laundry out into the light of day - into fresh air, than leave it lying around to stink. Much the same as a few weeks ago... some of us were complaining about basic whitewater OC1 instruction not including the notion of rolling, and a few people picked up on this and are including it in their approach. Too bad no one at the ACA took note, or voiced anything... but such as my experience with whitewater canoeing and the ACA... they are mutually exclusive.

I took music lessons, and saw this very thing. The first two times, I got took and ended up saying WTF. Finally I found a real instructor or teacher, and my results got much better. This guy not only had an aptitude for teaching, he had a large enough base to see what I needed. Instead of using the ABC1-2-3 formula or curriculum, he tailored the plan to me. It's the same with boating, you have to wade through a bunch of dead drift-wood to get to the tree of life. Sure there's a difference in group vs. one-on-one individualized training. However just because a club decides it needs certified instructors, doesn't mean that it's automatically granted because the check cashed. I believe it's in the best interest of the instructors themselves to step forward and say, we need better... because the shysters are not only hurting our business, but the sport as a whole. It's far better for us to have to search out for instruction, than to have bad instructors turning people off to the sport. I was lucky...how many were not?

cheajack · Post by **cheajack** » Tue Dec 22, 2009 1:19 pm

Nate is absolutely right in that classes from instructors tend to draw the interested and are just the beginning of a long learning curve. One of the thing that I like about single blade is that I'm always able to improve by seeking out help from those that are better than I am (and there are many). It is good that Nate and others caught the fever and were individually responsible for taking themselves to the next level and then the next......., but many are discouraged by the combination of the difficulty and poor instruction that makes things seem even more difficult than they really are.

The problems that I see currently in instruction are two: The evolution in instructor training has followed the evolution in paddle sport in general in that many have been attracted primarily because they have been looking for an ego boost (the hey look at me factor). They are the ones that show up with all the latest brand new gear talking the talk at the put in and swim every rapid with the comensurate littany of excuses. Unfortunately many of them have become instructors as well and the problem becomes self perpetuating. Secondly, many clubs have found that they can't find enough certified instructors willing to give up several paddling weekends a year to teach without getting these bozos involved. They are always the first ones to volunteer.

Perhaps we are all to blame, myself included, for not becoming ACA certified and trying to change the process from the inside instead of running around complaining. I vacillate on this point and was all ready to take an ACA instructors course several years ago when I happened to paddle with a ACA instructor who swam nine times on the Nolichucky because he had neither off side stroke nor effective low brace (no self rescue skills either). I bailed on the class because the certification said nothing about ones skill or ability to teach. Then who had the ego problem? Maybe me.

2opnboat1 · Post by **2opnboat1** » Tue Dec 22, 2009 1:31 pm

Lot of good input Yes there are some great instructors, with papers, but like Phil said they dont seem to wave it in the air. Ok then maybe we need a new teaching standard. Maybe a few boaters Need to set down and come up with a new Standard, one that teachs boofs, rolls and just in general ripping a river up in an open boat. Just an idea Know it is lots of work and it prob wont happen. Just feeding the fire

bobthepainter · Post by **bobthepainter** » Tue Dec 22, 2009 2:05 pm

you guys, ARE THE SPORT!! THE PADDLERS AND ,MANURFACTURES...but, don't lump instructors into a bad group of people... most folks paddling don't have the rivers in there back yard as some of you do.. some people only get to paddle 4 or 5 times per year. YOU DON'T GET GOOD WITH THEM ODDS!! and the SCHOOL OF HARD KNOCKS isn't favored by most...true ! to be part of the sport , help promote good will ,by helping out some of the confused ones out here! ... just bashing doesn't do any good..if you have BAD INSTRUCTORS ..OUST THEM OUT.. name names! i'm sure the "ACA" would like to know about them... we are just like any sport, we have rules, and guide lines to make it to the next level . and a helping is way better than pointing fingers.....