Make a boat easier to roll?

[kslund]

Wierd, I wrote a post and hit submit - but it seemed to disappear in
the ether - anyway, guess I'll retype.

So, I used to have a fairly decent combat roll in my last boat - a phantom. Since, moving to a prelude I am having a really hard time getting a good combat roll. Some of it is mental and some of it is technique - which I am working on both those items. I am wondering though - is there any thing I can do to the boat to make it easier to roll?

I've got very tight outfitting already, as well as water transfer channel under the saddle.

- more/less sidewall foam?
- raise/lower saddle?
- adjust trim?
- more/less air in airbags?
- other???

[kslund]

Oh, and what about hippads? do they make it easier or harder in an OC?

[Larry Horne]

My buddy dave has the most bomber roll I've ever seen. I've never seen him swim out of a c1 in the five or six years I've known him.. and he has taken some serious beatdowns

He got a prelude and proceded to swim at least three times a day. Sometimes three times in a single rapid (I'm sure I'll pay for this)

It might be a hard boat to roll.

[PAC]

So far the Prelude is my nemesis for rolling…. much more so than the often maligned Fink.
Overall I think I can say that I’m fairly comfortable rolling just about everything – long boats, short boats, OC1s, C2s….. but the darn Prelude is sort a crap shoot for me.
I even swam out of the bugger this weekend… so you’re not alone with the issue.
Personally, I think for me I have to figure out how to “tighten up” the outfitting (currently just a bulk head and foot pegs - no straps) since I could feel myself slipping out of it once it was flipped over. On the flip side (I know …bad pun) it’s such a responsive and fun boat to paddle I don’t mind “my” negative side of paddling it.
I’m guessing tightening up the footpegs, adding some strapping and definitely more mileage will make a difference. Keep us posted on how it goes for you!
Paul C.

[kslund]

Thanks for the replies so far. I was worried that people would say the prelude is a pita to roll - and it seems that might be the consensus. But swimming in Colorado front range rivers adn creeks absolutely sucks (shallow, sharp rocks) so I am determined to get my success rate up by any means neccessary.

Perhaps adding sidewall foam on my onside might help - less water in the boat - less water to transfer to the offside. Right now, I have some foam glued to the sidewall, but not covering the entire sidewall. I am also wondering if I can somehow strategically place the sidewall foam to channel the water into the center of the boat and the transfer area in particular. My thinking is to get the water to help me right the boat by channeling it to the offside. Anyone ever tinkered with this idea.

I am also really wondering about the hippads too? do they help or hurt? they don't seem to be affecting my roll but I am not 100% sure. I would take them out an try, but they are a pain to install/remove. curious to hear others thought first.

[sbroam]

Do you have thigh straps? I, for one, have pretty poor results trying to roll open boats with bulkhead only outfitting. [C-1s not such a problem] I think I need that little bit more "fit" at the upper thigh that straps offer (where the torque is greatest?) and a bulkhead doesn't.

[ELGOTTO]

I have paddled a Prelude but never tried to roll it however the owner of it told me before he let me paddle it that it doesn't roll as well as most open boats and he is very good at rolling oc1s so I would say try some different things. To me a boat full of water rolls easier , although slower, than one full of air bags.

[PAC]

We also have some shallow / sharp runs so I feel that pain!
The Prelude I'm using (thanks to TGG loan) is fairly well padded out on the sides and it does take some volume to get her to a piggish state. The less volume to fill with water the better in my book. A pump also helps to clear the boat quickly and aid in getting it back to trim quickly.
That said the only time I tend to be upside down is when I make a tactical error... lose concentration, poor line reading (tripp'n over a rock), weighting improperly when surfing a hole, etc.
As for hip pads - I hate the darn things - but others love / swear by them. If you think they are not impacting you they most likely are not. Do any other boats you have / not have them in?
I think this is just one of those times when you just have to work harder at figuring out the boats nuances. As memory serves me TGG is fairly efficient at rolling a prelude ... so its not the boat. I guess I'll be practicing more rolling and less swimming in it.

PS - Gonzo had it outfitted with a lap belt that might have been helpful in getting the roll executed... but those things scare me so I don't use it. My $.01

[kslund]

Do you have thigh straps? I, for one, have pretty poor results trying to roll open boats with bulkhead only outfitting. [C-1s not such a problem] I think I need that little bit more "fit" at the upper thigh that straps offer (where the torque is greatest?) and a bulkhead doesn't.

yep, I added thigh straps to keep my butt down and my pool roll went from really really poor to pretty good

To me a boat full of water rolls easier , although slower, than one full of air bags.

I've always felt this way too, but I wonder if there is any truth to it... I've experimented with leaving my bags underinflated and it didn't seem to make too much of a difference in the 'lude.

As for hip pads - I hate the darn things - but others love / swear by them. If you think they are not impacting you they most likely are not. Do any other boats you have / not have them in?

This is the first boat I've ever paddled with hippads. I think they are sort of a double-edged sword. Great for control in deeper water. Can be a detriment in shallow creeks - those sleeper rock hits are instantly transferred to your body and if you aren't loose (like in the middle of a hard stroke) - over you go!

I might start with removing the hippads - maybe I'll go over less often and not have to worry about rolling as much

[Einar]

Don't know the Prelude, it sounds like a tough roller, but... we do know you do have a roll.
Sometimes I add a high brace sweep onto the beginning of my roll, starting at the bow, if it is difficult. There is a video out there showing this but I saw it 15 years ago and can't remember the producer. It isn't easy to add on in squirrley water so sometimes I have to have patience and work out of a hole.
Also, if teaching a roll, I deflate the bags down to 50% in the practice pool, the boat becomes unstable right side up or right side down but... it has zero resistance to a roll and you can just focus on smoothing out your technique and adding power. Then I inflate the bags to 75%, more rolls, and then 100%.
I keep my paddle in the front 0-90 d. quadrant. If it drafts back behind 90 d. in the set up I seem to lose power.
While, at the pool instructing, I got a friendly lifeguard to film my roll from the high tower, 100% straight down. That was really helpful. I thought that I was giving 100% extension and taking my time but the camera didn't lie, I wasn't. Sounds like you won't be able to subtract from the boats qualities so you are left with adding 10% more juice to your roll, wherever you manage to find it.

[jakke]

I do roll my viper11 (flatwater), but I fail the prelude also miserably. Known issue

[scott curtis]

i've been in one ; and here's my 2 cents..i want my blade one top of the water, my handle @ straight arms length, body fully extended:they say there's a chance of shoulder disloc.. but in the circle of life....-hit happens....enjoy...so i'm gonna make a c motion paralel w/ the ship as i come up. i have a 3 lb. battery that might helps me, but i would have to buy another , if i give it 2 ya

[D-Caption]

Hey kslund,
Now that your all frustrated with the Prelude, it would be a good time to sell it, ha ha I am in the market for one or a Fly. Hang in there, it will come to you with time.

Good luck
D-Caption

[TheKrikkitWars]

Oh, and what about hippads? do they make it easier or harder in an OC?

Interesting question.

In my fly they certainly help, however in my prelude I either need hip pads and a lap belt, or thigh straps on their own; I've found that paddling the prelude with the thigh straps has allowed me to properly seperate my lower and upper body and thus tilt the hull to keep the boat dry without being forced to lean and then overbalance.

[kslund]

Hey kslund,
Now that your all frustrated with the Prelude, it would be a good time to sell it, ha ha I am in the market for one or a Fly. Hang in there, it will come to you with time.

Good luck
D-Caption

Haha, well see I actually like paddling the prelude alot - it's just the rolling part that is messing with my head. I get worried about trying harder rapids knowing that if I go over I will likely swim.

I pulled the hip pads out last night - going to go paddle a local creek today at high water - we'll see how it goes.