If you paddle a river populated by commecial rafts:

[Crunchy]

I believe less than 10 percent of raft guides are actually "boaters."
I also believe 100 percent of the guides think they are.
Opinions sought:

[Helly]

I find it interesting that many of the guides actually started out guiding, not boating. This was painfully apparent to me when we were sitting in moonshoot on the Ocoee, and rafts were coming thru by the dozens.....one raft was facing forward, the other backward, and one was yelling instructions to the other guide! I felt sorry for the passengers!
Quite a few guides on the Nantahala actually have actually asked me about canoeing or say things like I hope to be able to buy a boat this season so I can learn to paddle!
My impression is more NOC guides know how to paddle a different craft than the other companies....I would hope that a higher % of them would know if they take trips down harder water, esp the chattooga!

[Sir Adam]

Depends on river and outfitter. I know a lot of us have pushed rubber over the years at one time or another, and it is a nice (though very different) way to see a river. Exposes more people to WW too (and I'm still talking about the guides here). In some companies, and in some states, they have excellent training programs (Maine, for instance). Other ones... not so much....

A raft (or ducky even) is an easy way to get on the water... and pay for all the gear you "need"

[ezwater]

I was already an experienced Ocoee c-boater when I guided two runs in a raft, with mostly ww canoeists as passengers. We had a blast, hit all our lines, surfed some holes.

One problem I've seen is that guides who haven't kayaked or canoed do not know what we expect by way of avoiding them. Getting run over when I've taken shelter in eddies too small to house a raft is one example. Of course, I expect very little of rafts. We're the lions, they're the elephants.

[scott curtis]

i like the new command i started hearing this year from guide's ' GET -DOWN' if i paid good money for a ticket thats the last thing in the world i'd let someone tell me to do

[the great gonzo]

It all depends on the company, I guess. I just started working for Esprit on the Ottawa about a month ago, and here at Esprit every single guide is an experienced kayaker or canoer, many people even both. When we run the river we avoid the surf spots that are popular with kayakers and when we run a rapid with a popular playspot, we either avoid it completely or run it as a tight pod to get through as quickly as possible. And on our days off we take our canoes, kayaks or C1's and play hard!
it probably also depends on the area. I have not met any raft guide in BC yet that is not a boater himself. And rafting is definitely a cool way to introduce tons of new people to whitewater paddling.

TGG!

[oc1kcwlkr]

I think it boils down to a few factors.
I pretty much agree with you on most of your observations.

And just for reference i work on the same river you do.

1st.. Hartford is pretty much a drinking town that is funded by rafting. Its hard to believe how many raft guides who have been around for years that don't ever get out on any other water. (in any craft, whether it be raft, kayak, or canoe

2nd.. I think being in the southeast may be a big contributing factor. Most of the guides roll into town for the summer season when all the customers are around. i.e memorial day through labor day. By that time of year all of the water in the southeast is gone. There are many of them that never even get to experience what a season in the southeast is like with all of the different runs to get on.

Running the same old dam release stuff day in and day out gets old. I imagine if we worked somewhere fed by snowmelt with more options you'd find more people getting after it.

on the brightside.... in the last two weeks i've seen some big hartford groups on the cheoah,chattooga, and the new

[thunderkat]

There are plenty of raft guides/boaters on the noc surf wave in Hartford, which begs the question does anyone in Hartford have a c1 playboat they might want to let me borrow?

[djutzi]

there are a number of rafting companies on the Ottawa River...

with the notable exception of Esprit (whose staff are highly qualified), I'd say most of them have undertrained and inexperienced kids guiding their rafts. At best they'd have some kayaking experience but no river skills besides "full speed ahead through the hole!".

There is even one company that 'specializes' in self-guided rafting trips where everybody in the raft is a paid customer, and the guildes paddle in kayaks alongside, picking up the pieces.

-DJ

[Lengthy]

Being a retired experienced river guide I'll keep my opinion to myself about what makes a real boater. Hint: It's not the boat.
I will say this, if you get run over by a raft it's YOUR fault. They've already been called elephants, how fast can they move? If I pull out in front of a raft or catch an eddy the raft behind me may choose to use I fully expect to get run over.
Look at it this way. A raft guide is paid by customers to give them a good ride and keep them safe. You are not their customer, nor do you tip them at the end of the day.
If you haven't spent time in their sandals you really don't know.
And yes there are good companies and bad, but the 10 percent thing is a rediculous insult.

[Gwyn]

Hi DJ,
I don't know if you are being deliberately inflammatory about the other Ottawa rafting companies (by the look of your avatar you are wearing the Esprit 'uniform' gear).

I work for one of the others - at present we have plenty of guidestaff that are also boaters (including two ex-world champions, and two ex-national champions in various disciplines).

Just because we haven't done the Esprit 'Wild program' training doesn't mean that we are inexperienced! There are other ways to become a good raftguide (many of us also work in NZ). Guiding the Ottawa is not exactly difficult compared to many other rivers, so it is naturally a good place to start your guiding career. And rookie guides naturally make a few mistakes now and again (even at Esprit! - I remember whiteface). We just try to make sure that they learn from them and improve.

But at the end of the day, we are looking after our clients' interests. And we only try to run over people that work for us!

Gwyn

[djutzi]

What is the esprit uniform?

I don't nor have I ever worked for esprit. I've never been in one of their rafts, or anybody else's for that matter. I'm just speaking from what I've seen on the river, and what I've heard from other people, including speaking directly with guides who have worked for various companies.

Also, I DID take a WRT course taught by esprit, and the students included a number of people from other rafting outfits, sent to esprit for training...that says something in my opinion.

You'll note that I didn't name names negatively - only pointing out what I know to be a good example.

I'm sure there many exceptions...but those are my general impressions.

[PAC]

Silly me.... here I thought rafts were boats too!

Sure there are some PITA / clueless out there... but on a whole the percentages are about the same for yak and Cs. No finger point here!

I do have to say that as I stood on the rock towards the bottom of Zinger on monday (UY - waiting for Big Al and the shredder to catch up to me ) almost every raft guide changed lines and came in close to offer a ride. The only one that didn't was busy getting two swimmers in. So in my book those guides are boaters! Kudos to good river karma!

[drrpm]

I'd agree that on rivers like the Nantahala, Pigeon and Ocoee, the guides don't seem to have much hard boating experience. However, the guides on section 4 of the Chattooga are often quite
good paddlers of a variety of craft.

[Gwyn]

Hi DJ,

Sorry, looks like I jumped the gun a bit. Nearly all the Esprit guides wear yellow lifejackets, white helmets and black/blue tops, hence the inference.

I agree that Esprit runs a good operation with some very competent guides, and there are some big rafting operations on the Ottawa that don't really inspire confidence.

For the record, I work for RiverRun, and we try hard to make our river operations the best they can be. Come over and go boating (rafting, kayaking or canoeing) with us sometime.

Thanks
Gwyn