First of all, thanks for all the advice is prior threads. I would consider myself a trained beginner (OC-2) I started with a beginner weekend class a few weeks ago and have paddled about 6 times since then on class 2 WW. I am really enjoying it and reading as much as possible and watching as many videos as possible trying to learn more about canoeing technique. Unfortunately there is not a lot out there that specifically addresses tandem WW. (at least I have not found much)
For those of you with OC-2 experience what are some pieces of advice you would give someone like myself. i.e. most important/useful strokes for the bow/stern. general "responsibilities" for the bow paddler and stern paddler, Communication advice etc. It seems like there are some different philosophies out there regarding different aspects such as the amount of steering the bow paddler should do, or whether or not the stern paddler ever needs to do a cross stroke. We are taking a trained beginner class in a few weeks, but I know there is a lot of experience on this forum, and I'm hoping some of you are willing to share some tips.
I have been paddling with my fiance' and although I can see why people call them divorce boats, so far we have made a pretty good team w/o wanting to kill each other. haha. I really appreciate your time. Thanks!
If you were an OC-2 Instructor...
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I'm dominatly a solo paddler, but some things I think are important
- bow paddler, dont make your strokes to long, stop at the knees
- you have the luxury of being able to steer and apply power, so don't steer together
- work on paddling the same rythm, that brings the most power
Getting the timing right is one of the hardest things I experienced. Lining up your boat is a better way then yelling: "eddy right", where you start lining up, the timing, is a matter of experience and can become the alternative for: "second eddy right" It's hard enough to get that timing and alignment right in a solo canoe, now you're with 2 ideas of what's good.
Switch positions, at least on flatwater, that brings a lot of understanding for the other side of the boat.
And most importantly: enjoy what you are doing!
- bow paddler, dont make your strokes to long, stop at the knees
- you have the luxury of being able to steer and apply power, so don't steer together
- work on paddling the same rythm, that brings the most power
Getting the timing right is one of the hardest things I experienced. Lining up your boat is a better way then yelling: "eddy right", where you start lining up, the timing, is a matter of experience and can become the alternative for: "second eddy right" It's hard enough to get that timing and alignment right in a solo canoe, now you're with 2 ideas of what's good.
Switch positions, at least on flatwater, that brings a lot of understanding for the other side of the boat.
And most importantly: enjoy what you are doing!
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yarnellboat
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You can certainly put me in the camp of the stern paddler never having to do cross strokes! In my mind that would undermine that you're "partners", and possibly lead to both unintentional and intentional hitting with paddles.
The bow person has a lot of of control with the timing of power and the pivot strokes when entering and exiting eddies, but the stern person typical sets the overall line. That's how I see it - stern person is responsible for the "big picture", and bow person is key for nailing the details.
The timing of bow power (and with good, crisp strokes) is definitely something I appreciate in a good bow partner - often being the difference in whether we can stick a tiny eddy. They also need to be confident & bold with helping to get the leans right when going in and out of currents.
Conversely, the absence of a power boost when needed or the mindless, constant application of too much power are really annoying! Oh, and they shouldn't grab the gunwales every time the boat wobbles or bounces.
Pat.
The bow person has a lot of of control with the timing of power and the pivot strokes when entering and exiting eddies, but the stern person typical sets the overall line. That's how I see it - stern person is responsible for the "big picture", and bow person is key for nailing the details.
The timing of bow power (and with good, crisp strokes) is definitely something I appreciate in a good bow partner - often being the difference in whether we can stick a tiny eddy. They also need to be confident & bold with helping to get the leans right when going in and out of currents.
Conversely, the absence of a power boost when needed or the mindless, constant application of too much power are really annoying! Oh, and they shouldn't grab the gunwales every time the boat wobbles or bounces.
Pat.
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Pierre LaPaddelle
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Hey MrJack
All the sources I've followed to gain my present level of mediocrity agree on the following: Work on the Basics!
Much as I hate to sound as old as I am, one of the best sources of basic technique is Bill Mason's PATH OF THE PADDLE series of videos. Still in print, methinks.
Modern OC-2 paddling has adapted and tweaked many applications, but the basic physics which define the skills hasn't changed.
All the sources I've followed to gain my present level of mediocrity agree on the following: Work on the Basics!
Much as I hate to sound as old as I am, one of the best sources of basic technique is Bill Mason's PATH OF THE PADDLE series of videos. Still in print, methinks.
Modern OC-2 paddling has adapted and tweaked many applications, but the basic physics which define the skills hasn't changed.
C'est l'aviron. . . !
I do paddle tandem, usually on trips. Here's a few tips.
1. Paddle in synch. The shorter the tandem canoe, the more important this is, but it's also simply more efficient. A good trip for the bow partner is to put in a pause at the end of every forward stroke so the stern has time for their correction.
2. Learn to trust your bow partner on their water reading--follow their lead. They see things first.
3. If you both beginners in canoeing, also spend some time paddling solo. That way you're learn better how various strokes affect a boat. It's harder to learn that when there's someone else in the boat.
Two good books:
1. Basic Canoeing by Rounds (Stackpole books)
2. Paddle Your Own Canoe by McGuffin
1. Paddle in synch. The shorter the tandem canoe, the more important this is, but it's also simply more efficient. A good trip for the bow partner is to put in a pause at the end of every forward stroke so the stern has time for their correction.
2. Learn to trust your bow partner on their water reading--follow their lead. They see things first.
3. If you both beginners in canoeing, also spend some time paddling solo. That way you're learn better how various strokes affect a boat. It's harder to learn that when there's someone else in the boat.
Two good books:
1. Basic Canoeing by Rounds (Stackpole books)
2. Paddle Your Own Canoe by McGuffin
As Li'l D's stern partner, I guess I should add my perspective.
The "No blaming" rule is very important! You have to be together, blaming leads to arguing (The Divorce Boat).
We have had quite a few "learning experiences", some have been painful for sure. What has kept us going, is that we focus on WHAT went wrong and not WHO went wrong.
We paddle an Esquif Blast, the saddles are much too close for me to switch sides. I paddle on one side and never do cross strokes. I paddle righty most of the time, she paddles left and does crossdraws and even occaisional cross forwards as needed. We sometimes switch sides and even seats in easy rapids, to take a break. I find that prys and draws are very useful for initiating our moves. If a surf wave catches my attention, or I make a quick decision to go for an eddy, the initiation combined with boat tilt lets her know what I've got in mind. No words needed.
I agree with Pat that the stern paddler is responsible for "the big picture". At this point, I rely on her ability to pick up last second problems and respond to her actions. Few if any words are spoken.
There are several photos of us in the Hudson Armada galleries on this site. We are pretty much always smiling cause we're having fun!
The "No blaming" rule is very important! You have to be together, blaming leads to arguing (The Divorce Boat).
We have had quite a few "learning experiences", some have been painful for sure. What has kept us going, is that we focus on WHAT went wrong and not WHO went wrong.
We paddle an Esquif Blast, the saddles are much too close for me to switch sides. I paddle on one side and never do cross strokes. I paddle righty most of the time, she paddles left and does crossdraws and even occaisional cross forwards as needed. We sometimes switch sides and even seats in easy rapids, to take a break. I find that prys and draws are very useful for initiating our moves. If a surf wave catches my attention, or I make a quick decision to go for an eddy, the initiation combined with boat tilt lets her know what I've got in mind. No words needed.
I agree with Pat that the stern paddler is responsible for "the big picture". At this point, I rely on her ability to pick up last second problems and respond to her actions. Few if any words are spoken.
There are several photos of us in the Hudson Armada galleries on this site. We are pretty much always smiling cause we're having fun!
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Mr.DeadLegs
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Lew is there a reason to always have the dude in the back? It seems as this is the norm. Is it a height issue, skill, weight, I don't get it. The responsibilities of the bow paddler seems like it would favor the more confident, skilled and agressive paddler. Not to slam the women of the sport, but the bulk of skilled canoeists are men, why are they not in the front? You could trim a boat for the weight issue, the height thing could be an issue, other than that it seems like things would work better with the strongest, most agressive, least risk adverse paddler in front. I forgot to mention the risk adverse nature of paddlers. The bow paddler gets the most thrilling ride, shouldn't the more adventursome paddler be in the front?
Seems to me tandem teams if they are male female always have the woman in the front. How is it determined who will be bow paddler and who is stern on a team that is not mixed sexes?
Seems to me tandem teams if they are male female always have the woman in the front. How is it determined who will be bow paddler and who is stern on a team that is not mixed sexes?
"Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to slide in sideways totally worn out, shouting "Holy large steaming pile of dog doo what a Ride" " Nolan Whitesell
Mr. D. Legs, I've seen some very effective tandem teams with a huge paddler in front and a tiny paddler in stern. But my spouse likes an unobstructed view, and she doesn't get it if I paddle bow. If I am in stern, I'm tall enough to see over her for overall course planning, leaving her responsible for rock spotting. So it's not for any overwhelming reason, but for a few small reasons that, in our tandems, the large person is in the back.
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Yukon
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Hi I have a canoe school and teach a lot of tandem canoers.
Once you both understand the fundamentals (NOT BASICS) things will open up. Communicate loud and clear and in the same language will help. Keep things simple and clear. Padlle lots and dont over analysis things.
Once you both understand the fundamentals- then try this- designate a Leader and the other MUST Follow. Helps if the Bow paddler is the leader. Then the sterns job is to make sure the stern follows the bow. You have to read your bow paddler. If the bow is pointing at an eddy you are going to eddy turn, if it is pointed at a surf wave you are gonna surf, if you flip you roll etc.
The key is the follower must follow, if your bow person hesitates then you hesitate , forces the bow to make decision and stick with and be aggresive.
Once you nail this down with your partner you will make music in your canoe. It takes a while and be patient. Paddle with others to see how lucky you are with your partner.
And sometimes you have to tell your partner- No time to talk in this eddy jsut paddle
Have fun and keep it fun
Once you both understand the fundamentals (NOT BASICS) things will open up. Communicate loud and clear and in the same language will help. Keep things simple and clear. Padlle lots and dont over analysis things.
Once you both understand the fundamentals- then try this- designate a Leader and the other MUST Follow. Helps if the Bow paddler is the leader. Then the sterns job is to make sure the stern follows the bow. You have to read your bow paddler. If the bow is pointing at an eddy you are going to eddy turn, if it is pointed at a surf wave you are gonna surf, if you flip you roll etc.
The key is the follower must follow, if your bow person hesitates then you hesitate , forces the bow to make decision and stick with and be aggresive.
Once you nail this down with your partner you will make music in your canoe. It takes a while and be patient. Paddle with others to see how lucky you are with your partner.
And sometimes you have to tell your partner- No time to talk in this eddy jsut paddle
Have fun and keep it fun
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bushpaddler
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Hi,
everything is said! I completely agree with Pat, Li'l D and LEW. If you follow these advice and practice enough you'll get to where most paddlers don't ecpect to se a OC2 or C2.
We're paddling a Blast, a Millbrook Big Boy and a Canoah Amerika C2 up to class IV and love the teamwork. Unfortunately there are far too few other tandem crews to paddle with and share the fun.
So, don't argue or blame, practice and have fun exerienceing the power of two forward strokes...
Florian
everything is said! I completely agree with Pat, Li'l D and LEW. If you follow these advice and practice enough you'll get to where most paddlers don't ecpect to se a OC2 or C2.
We're paddling a Blast, a Millbrook Big Boy and a Canoah Amerika C2 up to class IV and love the teamwork. Unfortunately there are far too few other tandem crews to paddle with and share the fun.
So, don't argue or blame, practice and have fun exerienceing the power of two forward strokes...
Florian
http://www.bushpaddler.de/bilderundtouren.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Actually, Li'l D is a very competent stern paddler.
Her username was not chosen randomly. Just like "Big Al" is big, Li'l D is little. With the close seating in the Blast, she is looking into the middle of my back from the stern. Unless we are nearly sideways, she can't read much of the river. It is important that both paddlers have a good view of what is going on! It cuts down on the need to talk since you both see the same thing, you only need think about your responsibilities and leave your partner to handle theirs.
We sometimes switch seats in class 2 and easy 3, but when we really need to have it together she gets the bow seat. Besides, she is just plain better up front than I am!
Her username was not chosen randomly. Just like "Big Al" is big, Li'l D is little. With the close seating in the Blast, she is looking into the middle of my back from the stern. Unless we are nearly sideways, she can't read much of the river. It is important that both paddlers have a good view of what is going on! It cuts down on the need to talk since you both see the same thing, you only need think about your responsibilities and leave your partner to handle theirs.
We sometimes switch seats in class 2 and easy 3, but when we really need to have it together she gets the bow seat. Besides, she is just plain better up front than I am!
Tandem partners
As an occasional OC-2 instructor, I always brought up one point during a break: Are both of you in the boat because YOU want to be, or is one of you there because you want to please the other person? The latter is not necessarily fatal, but it should be understood and honored by both. Paddling a boat together demands absolute honesty and mutual respect. My youngest son is a decent paddler, but prefers to climb, whereas I am totally hard-core. When we paddle together, I dial it back, honor his preference and am honored and happy that we can share & enjoy. When I go with him to the rocks, I'll do one or two simple scrambles, but am happy to spent most of the time belaying. Neither of us insists on expecting what is never going to happen: we enjoy what we can share and respect each others' choices.
Yukon has it right that someone has to lead and in WW it IS the bow. As for "dudes" being more aggressive -- I wouldn't count on that. I know plenty of aggressive women paddlers -- maybe it's the neighborhood. Bow-women can be at a strength disadvantage pulling the boat into a tight eddy, or out of a big hole, but that's not lack of aggressiveness. Some time in a solo boat also helps not only technique and water "sense" but confidence. I think it's a big mistake to label someone "the more aggressive" partner. In a motivated team, as skills and experience develop, things should be pretty equal.
Sooner or later in whitewater, your partner has the move and you have to "give him/her the boat". Get used to it.
Yukon has it right that someone has to lead and in WW it IS the bow. As for "dudes" being more aggressive -- I wouldn't count on that. I know plenty of aggressive women paddlers -- maybe it's the neighborhood. Bow-women can be at a strength disadvantage pulling the boat into a tight eddy, or out of a big hole, but that's not lack of aggressiveness. Some time in a solo boat also helps not only technique and water "sense" but confidence. I think it's a big mistake to label someone "the more aggressive" partner. In a motivated team, as skills and experience develop, things should be pretty equal.
Sooner or later in whitewater, your partner has the move and you have to "give him/her the boat". Get used to it.
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Mr.DeadLegs
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How many competant agressive paddlers do you know that are women, and how many competant agressive paddlers do you know that are men. There are women out there that are good and can paddle circles around men, but there are not many. The ratio of male to female WW canoeists is hugely tilted towards the male side. My comment about having the most agressive, least risk adverse paddler in the front is not gender specific. It just seems to me that most women have a greater sense of self preservation, and therefore are more rist adverse. Do you argue that the bow paddler is in for the more thrilling ride. They go deepest on the drops, they take the water in the face, where is the best ride on a roller coaster? Give me the front seat any day. That is where agression fits in, the desire to take that hard line, to make that tough eddy, to launch off that drop. I asked my question because other than the height issue it makes no sense to me to always have the dude in the back. You can trim the boat to compensate for weight differences. It seems it is done this way because it always has been. You brought up the strength issue, I had not even thought of that, and in most cases it would seem to favor a stronger paddler in the front. Who initiates a tandem roll?Would it be the bow or the sturn paddler? And don't get all Alan Alda on me and say that I am discounting female paddlers. I could care less what equipment god gave you it is your skill and desire in the boat that matters.
"Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to slide in sideways totally worn out, shouting "Holy large steaming pile of dog doo what a Ride" " Nolan Whitesell