Hello!
I bought a brand new factory outfitted boat in November and have about thirty river days in it. The d-ring patches for the thigh strap have both pulled up at different times bringing the vinyl layer under them up too. I used gflex to reattach the first one but haven't gotten to the second one yet. It happened last week on the second day of a six day fifty mile trip on the New in WV teaching a group of scouts to paddle and doing river clean up, the exact same place the first one pulled up at a month before. Is this normal? Should I just fix this one too and forget it or should I be worried about the ones holding my flotation down or my saddle coming up the same way? I bought a new boat so I wouldn't have to spend my limited paddling time fixing the twenty year old outfitting on my old boat or worrying about my home repair job failing. Is this something I'm going to continue to deal with? Is there something wrong with my boat and/or outfitting? I've got pictures to post when i get home from work this week. Just wanted to know what you guys think.
Thanks,
Nathan
Outfitting Failure
Moderators: kenneth, sbroam, TheKrikkitWars, Mike W., Sir Adam, KNeal, PAC, adamin
The vinyl layer of Royalex is not as strong as the ABS layer under it, and the bond of the vinyl layer is not *that* strong either. That's why I can easily skim the vinyl off the ABS with a sharp chisel held at a low angle.
But usually, vinyl d-ring patches applied to the vinyl layer will hold.
Two things may be the case. First, perhaps with today's "green" Royalex coming from the factory, the bond between the vinyl and the ABS is not as strong as it will be after aging.
Second (and I regret having to raise this possibility), the Vynabond may not have dried thoroughly, and there may have been enough solvent to soak into the vinyl, causing it so tear and pull away from the ABS.
I also think that some people set their thigh straps up so that there is a godawful amount of tension on them. Personally, I would avoid doing this. In my OC-1s, some of the downward support for my thighs comes from the center thwart. In my c-1s, the thigh straps are supplemented by downward pressure from the cockpit rim (with a little padding).
I am switching over from Vynabond to G-flex for any D-ring that will be under high stress. It is better to skim off the vinyl and bond the G-flex to the ABS.
But I think everyone can continue to be happy with Vynabond if they make sure it dries thoroughly, and if they outfit so that the tension on D-ring patches from things like thigh straps is not unreasonable.
But usually, vinyl d-ring patches applied to the vinyl layer will hold.
Two things may be the case. First, perhaps with today's "green" Royalex coming from the factory, the bond between the vinyl and the ABS is not as strong as it will be after aging.
Second (and I regret having to raise this possibility), the Vynabond may not have dried thoroughly, and there may have been enough solvent to soak into the vinyl, causing it so tear and pull away from the ABS.
I also think that some people set their thigh straps up so that there is a godawful amount of tension on them. Personally, I would avoid doing this. In my OC-1s, some of the downward support for my thighs comes from the center thwart. In my c-1s, the thigh straps are supplemented by downward pressure from the cockpit rim (with a little padding).
I am switching over from Vynabond to G-flex for any D-ring that will be under high stress. It is better to skim off the vinyl and bond the G-flex to the ABS.
But I think everyone can continue to be happy with Vynabond if they make sure it dries thoroughly, and if they outfit so that the tension on D-ring patches from things like thigh straps is not unreasonable.
Re: Outfitting Failure
Let me guess. Esquif?VAnate wrote:Hello!
I bought a brand new factory outfitted boat in November and have about thirty river days in it. The d-ring patches for the thigh strap have both pulled up at different times bringing the vinyl layer under them up too. I used gflex to reattach the first one but haven't gotten to the second one yet. It happened last week on the second day of a six day fifty mile trip on the New in WV teaching a group of scouts to paddle and doing river clean up, the exact same place the first one pulled up at a month before. Is this normal? Should I just fix this one too and forget it or should I be worried about the ones holding my flotation down or my saddle coming up the same way? I bought a new boat so I wouldn't have to spend my limited paddling time fixing the twenty year old outfitting on my old boat or worrying about my home repair job failing. Is this something I'm going to continue to deal with? Is there something wrong with my boat and/or outfitting? I've got pictures to post when i get home from work this week. Just wanted to know what you guys think.
Thanks,
Nathan
Possible, but they don't use D-rings. I know Bell does, and I think Mohawk does. No matter, a witch hunt of the manufacturer isn't needed at this phase.ncdavid wrote:Let me guess. Esquif?
I'd get the boat back to the dealer/ whoever sold it ASAP. I'd be very concerned about the door #2 probability that ezwater mentioned. Could be an issue with the Royalex sheet, could be bad outfitting, either way it's cause for concern.
No witchhunt here. I've just had to redo the outfitting on a number of Esquif boats. Admittedly, the worst offenders are Zephyrs and Sparks, so I understand that those are atypical materials. The outfitting in my Vertige X was very good and none of it failed. I love their hulls, but I'd do the outfitting myself.
The Zephyr is difficult to glue to due to its material. This has been discussed here and seems to be well known.
The Spark also does not like contact cement to glue in outfitting. Its inner layer is ABS not vinyl. You need to clean the surface with MEK and use Stabond glue to glue in outfitting. Even this glue fails at times. Not sure if G-flex works.
The Spark also does not like contact cement to glue in outfitting. Its inner layer is ABS not vinyl. You need to clean the surface with MEK and use Stabond glue to glue in outfitting. Even this glue fails at times. Not sure if G-flex works.
Glued directly to the vinyl or whatever R-lite skin is made out of or glued to the underlying ABS?kaz wrote:I'll let you in on a little secret. Any epoxy works for gluing stuff in a royalex boat or an R-lite boat.
JKaz
I was surprised to find that the ABS layer in my R-Lite Rival is white. Don't ask me how I know.... Epoxy right to that should my Sta-Bonded, oversized dog-bone and D-rings fail?
Doug
Phreon, I'm not familiar with Sta-Bond, but I'd be concerned about contact cementing to ABS because elements in contact cement solvent could soften the surface of the ABS and possibly cause early failure.
One would like to know about actual experiences contact-cementing to bare ABS. My approach is that if I remove the vinyl overlayer, I use epoxy. A small sandbag or similar placed over food wrap can apply pressure to a D-ring patch while epoxy hardens. One of the few disadvantages of G-flex epoxy is that it does not harden fast like West 105/205.
One would like to know about actual experiences contact-cementing to bare ABS. My approach is that if I remove the vinyl overlayer, I use epoxy. A small sandbag or similar placed over food wrap can apply pressure to a D-ring patch while epoxy hardens. One of the few disadvantages of G-flex epoxy is that it does not harden fast like West 105/205.
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scott curtis
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