why do so many canoers have a giant chip on the shoulder?

[RodeoClown]

The countless articles about the death of open boatin

Can you find one of those for me? All the journals are online now. Not saying they're not there, just want to read them for myself. I'd also say that the Journal is probably the most insignificant thing AW does. If they stopped doing it, I probably wouldn't really notice. When it comes to access and conservation, which is the real reason I'm a member, they're not perfect, but I don't see too many other options. Their mission statement is “to conserve and restore America's whitewater resources and to enhance opportunities to enjoy them safely.” To me, that's A LOT more important than the gossip column.

I find it interesting how if you paddle both kayak and canoe, you're labeled a butt-boater. I guess I'll never be a canoer (or even a canoeist) then, even though I think it's fun and I like to think I'm pretty good at it.

As far as my previous comment about canoes being inferior, as it's been said many times before, there's a giant hole in the top of the boat that lets the boat fill up with water. In whitewater, that's a huge inherent design flaw, and also a big part of the appeal of it to me, both from a design standpoint and a paddling standpoint. Figuring out how to deal with the water, keep it out of the boat when possible through skill, and making the boat still perform when it has water in it. At least for me, the challenge that come from not paddling the best craft is a big part of the fun. Doing something different.

[Craig Smerda]

I find it interesting how if you paddle both kayak and canoe, you're labeled a butt-boater. I guess I'll never be a canoer (or even a canoeist) then, even though I think it's fun and I like to think I'm pretty good at it.

Mark Scriver paddles canoes, kayaks, C1's & SUP's at what I would call a high level... so what does that make him exactly?

One of my good friends (Craig Reidner) that doesn't paddle very much any longer used to be as good in a C1 as he was in a kayak or a canoe... I learned more from him early on than anyone hands down... and he could paddle any of those boats at a high level no matter if it was playing, creeking, river running or slalom racing.

I have a lot of respect for folks like Mark and Craig.

A few weeks back when you and I were on the Upper Yough with David, Martin and Lynn... we were just "boaters"... I didn't hear or see anyone saying "kayak this" or "canoe that".

I guess some people just like making mountains out of molehills.

Let's ride bikes!!!

[RodeoClown]

Let's ride bikes!!!

Bikes??? those are for wimps.



I guess the bottom line is there are people who like to paddle, and people who only like to paddle their way.

[Leland]

Let's ride bikes!!! :lol:

Bikes??? those are for wimps.

I can ride one of those too. It's easier than open boating.

[oopsiflipped]

I guess the bottom line is there are people who like to paddle, and people who only like to paddle their way.

Well said.

[Louie]

Open some of the links you posted, now look at the index of articals. You are right American Kayers club news letter is as insinificance as anything they do, besides they have important stuff to do, like make sure we pay to paddle the Cheoah, sign papers before we get on the Tullah, only use NOC buses for shuttle, provide a platform for pro butt boaters to say how canoein is dead and they are only good for kids and fishing, and open John Creeks for us. Oh wait they ain't got around to that yet, I can only guess what deal they will strike and what restricationa nd fees we will have to pay to do that. They should raise their club due so that volunter organization can pay their paid staff more.

I want to say here and now you are 100% right and I am 100% wrong. The American Kayaker club is the great organiztion in the world and we should just be happy that once a year we get to split one of their news letters with rafts. Ya butt boaters are the NFL, fully protected from that evil water with their spray dress, full face helment training blade, overpaid and over hyped and us scum canoers are like stupid Rugby players, ya stupid to make the sport more challengin by havin a higher center of gravity, half a blade and a big old hole in top of our boats. Ya the next time some butt boater in the parking lot comes up and say"hey I admire you guys for runnin that in a canoe" I am goin to say you are stupid it you guys with the full face helment, protective dress, and trainin paddles are the real men of the sport (even with the dresses). Untill I quit them in the 90's I keep my with my collection of American Kayaker new letter going back to the 70's. I am sure you know more about American Kayakers in your short time of boatin than I ever will.(BTW were you at the 1990 Ocoee Rodeo We got bumped three time but American Kayaker added to the sport by makin sure there was a sit on top class and got themselves a really nice trailer in the process. You might not remember sit on tops.

Ya you win you are right and I won't ever imply that I might know something about a fight that started before you were born, Please make one more post so you can live up to your dress wearin way and get the last word in. I have said my peace and you are like a God to us only mortals we can hope one day to flop around in holes doin dumb kayak tricks, ya betwen you, Gable, and that other Yankee we have the whole trinty. Sorry I ever even though there might be knowledge outside you all. I hope you have good boatin up there in Yankee land and don't have to come down here and put up with us Southerns

"never argue with a fool, people might not be able to tell the difference"

[jscottl67]

Can't we all just get along?

Whack!


Guess not.

[RodeoClown]

Ya you win you are right and I won't ever imply that I might know something about a fight that started before you were born, Please make one more post so you can live up to your dress wearin way and get the last word in.

Gladly, Will do. I'm trying to understand what events led you to feel this way, see some evidence of those things, and then evaluate for myself. Maybe it's the narrow minded butt boater in me, but it's hard for me to change my mind based on an argument like "something happened at a rodeo 20 years ago that pissed me off" compared to my first hand experience dealing with AW on a local dam relicensing and things like those journal links I posted. (What other mag does a whitewater canoe issue even every other year?) Most of the articles look pretty good, though there is one called "Endangered Canoes." The subtitle is "Whitewater Canoeists: Endangered Populations Prove surprisingly hardy making comeback." And the article is mostly about ALF, and written by someone who paddles a canoe (but may or may not be a canoer and/or canoeist).

Having been involved in dam relicensing, I can understand the sometimes ridiculous seeming restrictions placed on things like shuttle, parking, etc. The whole process is mind bogglingly complex, and all sorts of seemingly ludicrous things must be addressed, negotiated, and written down legalese. It takes someone with a good deal of expertise to work through the process- and the power companies have these people, and like to make a lot of hoops for us to jump through in order to make it seem like getting releases isn't worthwhile for us- especially when presenting it to the other resource agencies involved. So it's important to have someone with experience on our side to be able to fight our side, give examples of how things were done at other projects, etc. It's kind of like seeing sausage being made. After what I've seen, having to pay to park or sign a form isn't that bad. I'm not saying this to tell you something you don't know, just to put opinion into perspective based on my personal experience.

Tell me more about what happened at the 1990 Ocoee rodeo. Sorry, I couldn't make it, I was 9 at the time.

"never argue with a fool, people might not be able to tell the difference"

Good advice, so I'll try to have a civilized debate.

[yarnellboat]

Pat .... were you low bracing that whole post? yeaaahhh you were.

Good response!

Really, really looking forward to seeing the video of you styling some class IV (I'd settle for long class III) in some kayak and C-1 playboats!

I get that you want to achieve your goals and be "one of the few" with bigtime OC-1 skills. Give'r. I hope to see you do OK in the Green Race, that'd be cool. Looking forward to that vid and others.

But do need need trash talk about things you've got no expereince?? How can you riduclue kayaks and C-1s if you've never paddled either? You enjoy trashing them so much that you should probably go try them out, prove how much easier they are, and get your self some credibility. Otherwise, you're full of it. (I'm not saying kayaking isn't easier to learn, it is, but what you say is all talk - get in a C-1 and find out!)

Based on my limited experience in a C-1, I think you'll find there's more to it than whether water gets in. Your edges will catch in currents you didn't even see and you'll get smacked and stalled by stuff you barely noticed in the Det. Go try it or stop the bashing/boasting.

I can take your bravado around your goals, because that's you & what you're doing - but why bring down stuff you know nothing about?

Pat.

[FullGnarlzOC]

i know them have skirts.... ahahaha

im outta here boys. have a good weekend paddling. wish me luck.

[TheKrikkitWars]

i know them have skirts...

Are you so uncomfortable with chalenges to your sexuality, that the fact that some misguided people call spraydecks, sprayskirts instead bothers you?

(I have no problem with drag, I garnered a great deal of attention for attending a canoeing fancy dress party dressed as Queen Amidala... though it's hard to imitate natalie portman when you're 6'3").

[insolence]

oh FullGnarlzOC, I get the impression you don't understand fully what it's all about. I don't mean to offend you - you seem to be a nice guy, though - I just want to explain


OC is cool, decked C1 is cool, in general single bladers are hot and stylish and stuff per definition. Me personally, I wouldn't even touch a double blade. But what really really matters way more than the boat is the personality, don't you think?


says Insolence, who by the way makes a decked C1 look just as cool as any Open Canoe could look....
I mean hey, I'm a girl, of course I wear skirts, haha, and sometimes I don't , who cares?

[Larry Horne]

im sure some river will knock some humility in me sooner or later... usually how things work. It's gonna have to do better than getting blown upside down into rocks, or getting munch in a hole for a lil bit.

Something bigger happens, and i might start slowing down. But as of right now... things feel good. Gotta keep firing it up....i mean, what else is there to do?!?

carefull with that attitude. geting worked in holes and bashed into rocks is nothing..it's everyday stuff and it don't mean jack.
listen to me. do not play tough with the river gods. i don't care how athletic or skilled or "GNARLY" you are, i know for a fact that you can not breathe under water.
stuff happens.
i personally would like to see you stick around so we can keep beating up on you. it's so much fun!

[xmas0c1c1k1]

this is so ridiculous, but hilarious gotta back up Pat here

Who low braces through rapids such amateurs
(sorry non facebookers ie larry I did not post these just found them)

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=3 ... 1117458278

One big frigging brace!!! C'mon dude anybody with some solid class III skills should be throwin an off side boof there and landing on an off side forward stroke or maybe an offside J to pull you through the hole and then correct away from the wall. I mean if a kayaker can throw a boof stroke there on the right side so should a canoe right

Haha good work that looks like a pretty stout drop I'm guessing the following shot we'd be seeing your McGnarlz boat graffiti.

And i agree with larry fire it up prove us wrong but the river she don't give a darn who the f you are she can prove you wrong at any moment. After been through a tough injury I will tell you that I'd rather back off a little than be sidelined for a long time and have to start almost from the beginning again. Also big strong guys are as prone if not more prone to shoulder injuries!!!

[Louie]

YOU GUYS BETTER TALK TO THE CANADIAN BUTT BOATER, SOME OF THEM LIKE THE AMERICAN KAYAKER AS MUCH AS THE GDI DOES.


I am not a fan of AW, and I'm from the states. They seem have this President G.W. Bush-Regime attitude like "you're either with us, or against us". I'm called a "hater" (more than once) because I disagree with your opinion to give AW money for BC Creek protection. I'm called ignorant as well. Your true colors are showing through. Again, very Bush-Like. You guys will make fine AW representatives some day.


I didn't mean to step on any toes, as my motivation to paddle is just that, and not to sell books, videos, and represent manufacturers and political organizations.

IF I CARED MORE I'D LOOK UP THOSE THREE ISSUES IN A ROW WHERE CLAY WAS REALLY TRYIN TO PUSH PODS BY SAYIN HOW THERE WERE NO MORE OPEN BOATER OUT THERE. IT WAS ABOUT THE TIME THE AMERICAN KAYAKER WAS PUSHING TATES BOOK AS THE FINAL AND FOREMOST ATHORITY ON CANOE HISTORY.

BTW IT WAS THAT FINAL ISSUE THAT GAVE BIRTH TO AIN'T LOUIE FEST. YOU SHOULD STUDY HISTORY BEFORE YOU TRY TO TEACH IT............ OR REWRITE IT.