Nev-a-ful

[Craig Smerda]

and I still say this is the way to c-boat

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fvnBcBC6Wqs

uhhhh... dood... he weren't warin' no skirt in case ya' didn't notice.

[Craig Smerda]

Yikes - EGAD - Wow, a total of ten holes now!

I'm going to get you a new hat... a "Wisconsin" sort of hat

[img]http://www.wisconsingoods.com/images/toph-1.jpg[/img]

Q: "Why not just put a skirt on that thing?"

If I had a nickel for everytime...

[philcanoe]

Well there's good news to report and not so good.


Not exactly what I had hope to report, but not all negative either. Much as everyone expected the boat does float, and much as every one expected there is considerable water left remaining. In the interest of fair play, I will say it was more than I had hoped for. Upon duck taping the holes close, and careful measurement I came up with 10 US gallons (or 37.853 liters or 8.3267384 Imperial gallons). While this is considerably less than I often find in there, it is more than I usually want. However this was a strange ten gallons worth, for the boat handled surprisingly well. As if there really wasn't that much weight or volume. I can only surmise that it was at neutral buoyancy, even though kneeling in 5 inches of water. It certainly handled way better than 5 inches normally would. (No jokes about knowing what 5inches handles like). Of course I'd never paddled a boat with 3" of minicell on the bottom, or the ends filled either. So there was nothing normal with that 5 inches.


OK - Now to where this started:

• I drilled using approximations from what James supplied: http://blog.jamesweir.net/2010/05/nevaf ... travo.html substituting a 1.5 inch drill instead of a 33m (or 1 and 5/16"), spaced 2.75 inches apart, and 5.75 inches up from bottom. There was no testing prior to outfitting with foam, which would have been nice... but full steam ahead, and the boat was already completely unfitted, as was necessary in order to weld. I simply didn't want to outfit twice, and James had already done this with satisfactory results.
• Prior to this, as per the initial pics/post: Three inches of minicell was completely glued down from bow to stern (except knee and feet area), and spray foamed filled both ends 12" back.

After this I went in search of answers...

At rest with the boat flat, there was no water coming in; however with the least bit of lean or wave (1" inch) water would begin to come in. This did not cease until the boat was filled level with the holes. So now I was faced with the question of whether this was neutral buoyancy, or if the added weight was filling the boat to the hole's level.

So being devoid of the appropriate CAD package and bereft of an engineering degree (not sure either would have helped) I decided that there was no way for me to decisively determine this at home, and my easiest method would be drill-baby-drill. So another 4 holes were added, to the original 6 holes. Using the same 1.5" bit, the new one's were centered 1.75 inches below center of the original ones. This IS definitely below water line. I then taped over the original holes.



So a new search and another day...

The boat still fills to the almost the exact same level. I am guessing maybe 1/4" (0.25) less water. So my summation is this is neutral buoyancy of me and the boat, and those original holes were most likely 0.25 inches above actual water line. Nether the less, I think it shows it would absolutely be better to drill low. As choosing to drill high, could result in more water than necessary. Still if you want dry, this is not it. My method of testing this, was after paddling around and finding a water level, to then load canoe with rocks back to same level, and then untape the original holes. This is where I came up with the quarter of an inch difference.

I am left questioning the weight of that additional foam, it certainly weights considerable more (if just from 1/3 gallon of contact cement) at 55 lbs completely outfitted; however there is no way to determine original (Sauvage) weight. And perhaps finding a less dense (lighter) more buoyant foam might help some. A heavy dense saddle foam was used, and there is a lighter less firm minicell. Maybe with some looking around, a better choice might exist.

Now back to performance:

With 5" inches of water, I have no idea how the boat will handle something steep. Nor if I really want to boof something critical, on the chance I'd hang up. Of course that 5"inches, looks a little different spread all over the bottom of a outfitted boat. And after a little trial it may be acceptable. For comparison, this is what ten gallons (and some dry leaves for reference) looks like in my Pyranha S'Fly:



But wait - and a big but it is...

For playboating this appears to be the ticket. Not that I'm the getting my head wet type of play boater, but on that little play feature in picture - it was great... which is all that I have at hand today... it rocked. Not telling the freestyle boaters what to do, but they need to consider or at least try this for throwing ends. A BlackFly drilled, would be a beast to be reckoned with. I'm thinking throwing ends would be totally different with holes drilled, plus ends and bottom foamed. Rolling, did anyone say rolling... I only tried two as my shoulder is not 100 percent, but they were way easy. There appeared no resistance throughout the roll, no (2me-imho) normal Fly type hanging up while going over, and the least effort I can remember.

Like I said, hoping to be on the Ocoee this weekend - and let a few of the GDI or anyone else interested - see what they think?

[golder]

phil, some interesting conclusions. thanks for keeping us all posted w/ the indepth report, and having the chutzpah (can you believe that doesn't set off the spell check red squiggle?) to drill lots of holes in your boat.

how did the spray foam work out for you? did you use the great stuff from the can or something else? i've heard the great stuff can soak up a ton of water....if you've got something that actually will fill the voids in the end and keep the water out, that is pretty exciting, as i don't so much mind a little water in my boat, as i mind that water hanging out in the stern...

[Craig Smerda]

FWIW... water weighs about 8lbs per gallon

How quickly does it drain if you fill it up and you are inside it?

As I've said in the past... the SFly is the most stable boat I've ever paddled even while full to the gunnels. Part of the reason is that the profile of the hull as seen in the picture with the empty hull, water and leaves in it centers the weight of the water in the middle where it is the most stable rather than througout the boat.

Care to try one more test for us? Drill three holes just below the first (lower) gunnel and cover your existing holes. Ideally I think I'd prefer to have 8-10" or so of water in the boat but not more than that... I would think this method would also keep your drier when you are just paddling about compared to holes just above the water line.

Kinda makes me wish I had an old boat to try this with too Phil...

[philcanoe]

good idea....

...but I'm still thinking scuppers- or check valves. Since I have luckily gotten the exact placement for neutral buoyancy figured out. Now with the right something, it maybe possible to get to this lowest state, while not allowing water in. That's probably as good as I can do, unless finishing off with a pump.

which reminds me of a couple other additional thoughts:

This would likely be very cold in icy water.
And a pump would be useless (with holes at current placement), unless there were some sort of one way valve.

how did the spray foam work out for you? did you use the great stuff from the can or something else?...

Well I bit the bullet on some create-a-waterfall spray foam, which was supposed to be close celled; but not sure now, as it really looks like black version of Great Stuff. Did find a 2lb density foam urethane foam which is close-celled, US Composites had the best price so far: here The power boat builders (forums) seem pleased with this foam. One site even featured a report with regular updates for a year, the guy measured size (placing back in original mold) and weights after being continuously submerged in a aquarium. Size was constant and water absorption was indeed minimal.

[TheKrikkitWars]

I like this idea, I'd consider doing it to my CU-Fly (because fun though it is, it's handling deteriorates to pretty much unpaddlable once full); But for some reason I dont want to even think of doing it to my Prelude; I'm trying to decide how much of that is me wanting to accomplish certain testpiece rivers in it unaided, and how much is my worry that cutting into the RX yet again is going to risk destroying an ancient (and until I owned it well preserved) boat.

hades, I haven't even got round to sorting out a battery for it's pump yet, I just spent a low-water summer teaching myself to paddle drier and with more skill and finesse.

[philcanoe]

Did a couple tests this weekend on the Ocoee...

On one run (section) I ran with all 10 holes open, which was ok. However it was not the type of thing that made me overly ecstatic. It was very amusing to not worry about taking on water. It was very reticent of being in a c-boat, except without any of the performance benefits. The 10 gallons was not unwieldy, but as you would imagine less than what I would want all the time. And as expected it did draw more water. And also as expected you can playboat till your 'absolutely tired' without stopping to empty.

Next day the lower holes were taped closed, and six self made check valves installed. These were created by using the open nozzle end of a balloon. The holes are lined with a 1.5 inch (diameter) PVC tail piece extension (that slip joint part - used in a p-trap), and into this a 3/4 inch schedule 40 cap slides almost (very good thing) perfectly. It fits tight once a balloon is placed around it... not too tight, just right. The solid end of these caps have been removed/sawed so that a slight curve was still present (so as to be smooth), this created a maximum size flow through hole. The balloons were cut so they would not be stretched taut across the cap, and once together simply inserted (from the inside) into those tail piece tubes. Helium grade 'Purple' balloons at 1.99 for 25, at Hobby Lobby. Caps at 35 cents from Lowes, and 3.44 for a 16" double-ended extension tube (which makes two). The whole drain is around 2.5 inches long, which length was determined by the side flotation.

These worked pretty good, better in a 5 gallon bucket, using a plastic coke bottle as a canoe. Still in the canoe they did surprising well. I believe all that is needed is to shoot a couple brads though the end caps, so that the balloons will not get pushed back inside boat by heavier current, and then this will be A-OK. The beauty is pretty evident, in that you stay dry most the time, and then when needed the boat passively drains to an acceptable level.

I'm looking at vinyl and latex gloves, however they seem to hold apart and not close as readily. Same with using a larger balloon type punching bag. I need to find something with a larger opening, such as 'muy-grande' balloons. Louie mentioned another material, which merits a good look. Beginning to think this approach might actually have enough benefit. As a true self bailer has the added cavet of water weight, maybe drilling through bottom would lessen the water weight somewhat -a good suggestion by Larry Mauzy 'tennOC') . But not sure this would matter, as the (second made) lower holes were definitely below water line. So thinking a self drainer, would be better than a self bailer.

Next weekends task - BIG Balloons... and beer at the Waldens-Ridge party (at AU on Ocoee). Then hopefully pics of a working model.

[TheKrikkitWars]

Well, in direct contradiction to my above post, I'm going to do my Prelude tomorrow, it's an older RX one so I'm going to seal up round the edges of the holes once I get a chance.

Seen as I've not fitted the sidewalls that the previous owner removed I'll have a good idea of weather Phil's experimentation with foam was an improvement or not...

My one concern is that if I dislike it, I'm going to have a really hard time reversing it (presumably using copious amounts of kevlar, ABS slurry and the cores from the holesaw), but James' experimentation seems to have worked well enough for it to be worth taking the chance.

Watch this space!

[FullGnarlzOC]

As I am learning... there are just some class V runs out there that you NEED a pump for. Places, where it is not possible to get out and dump your boat. Not having a pump, I believe... will hold you back. Not everyone can be a super monster like Dooley. For us mortals, a pump, makes plenty of situations a lot more manageable.

Colton Falls on the Racquette for instance... it's very manageable to stay dry on the entry drop ( 5ft boof, slam off shelf another 5 ft into moving pool), then...if you don't have water in your boat, you might be able to make it to the corrent 'notch' boof line. If you were dry on the entry, making this move isnt a problem if your a good boater. If you're wet, it becomes considerably harder to not just get washed down to somewhere you don't want to be.

So we're at the notch boof, which is a 'sideways' angled boof, between two jagged rock walls, into a flume. If you nailed the boof...it is possible to be dry here too. Any mess up and you will not clear wet part and likely be swamped by the water comin off the lip.

At this point, you are between a bunch of rock walls, with a couple of slow water spots, but no real eddys. After not stomping the boof, I was able to grab on to part of a vertical rock face, and hold myself there, as water tried send me on my way. I turned the double pumps on, and after a good min of holding on for dear life... I was basically empty.

I then continued the drop, with minimal water. That last part of the drop was a left to right slide, use a gnarly pillow, to push you away from the wall, and smash through a hole. If you didn't get far enough right, you run smack dab into a keeper hole. One that you just don't get out of without swimming. Even if you did, you'd be swamped, and likely to get destroyed by one of the next 4 holes and pillows coming your way....

Point being... if you are into Class V gnarlz, and are paddling a boat that not only fills up with water, but a boat where you only have a brace on one side; then you should have no qualms about using pumps or having holes in your boat. You do what you gotta do to survive. And if pumps/holes make it easier...than I am all for it, because it's still beyond hard to class V open boat.

And these things still only help a little bit. Where a kayak/c1 can smash through certain spots, OBs don't have that luxury, You have to ride waves across things, hit corners of holes, smack water away from the boat, roll the boat, just so you have less water in it when you come up... you name it. Whatever you gotta do.

Did I mention that you only have a brace on one side?

[FullGnarlzOC]

Phil... what about the idea of 'foaming' out the bottom of the boat. If you foam out the bottom 2-3 inchs of the whole hull, it would cause water that enters the boat to sit higher than the actual water line, water would be forced out, and no water would be below the holes in the hull.

Foam adds extra weight, but I bet it isn't anywhere near what the water would weight if it was there instead.

Would this idea work?

[mr ray]

Phil... what about the idea of 'foaming' out the bottom of the boat. If you foam out the bottom 2-3 inchs of the whole hull, it would cause water that enters the boat to sit higher than the actual water line, water would be forced out, and no water would be below the holes in the hull.

Foam adds extra weight, but I bet it isn't anywhere near what the water would weight if it was there instead.

Would this idea work?

I'd imagine your center of gravity would move up and make things less stable.

If I were to keep my Viper I would put foam on the ends and run it to the edge of each airbag, leaving the saddle area unfoamed. My goal would be to make all the water pool in the middle of the boat away from the ends, making it easier to manuever with water in it. This would also hopefully aid in water exit via either pump or "nevaful" holes.

[TheKrikkitWars]

Phil... what about the idea of 'foaming' out the bottom of the boat. If you foam out the bottom 2-3 inchs of the whole hull, it would cause water that enters the boat to sit higher than the actual water line, water would be forced out, and no water would be below the holes in the hull.

Foam adds extra weight, but I bet it isn't anywhere near what the water would weight if it was there instead.

Would this idea work?

I'd imagine your center of gravity would move up and make things less stable.

I believe the idea is to carve the foam to fill all the area that you're not filling with your lower body.
That's what I've done in my Freestyle boat already (why carry more than the regulation 40L of water if you can avoid it?).

I'm planning to foam my prelude filling the voids either side of my legs up to the level of the Nevafull holes and add thick sidewalls (with a trapazoid cutout for the holes and non-return valves) to displace more water so that it drains quicker.

[Craig Smerda]

Phil... what about the idea of 'foaming' out the bottom of the boat. If you foam out the bottom 2-3 inchs of the whole hull, it would cause water that enters the boat to sit higher than the actual water line, water would be forced out, and no water would be below the holes in the hull.

Foam adds extra weight, but I bet it isn't anywhere near what the water would weight if it was there instead.

Would this idea work?

Foam weighs a lot less than water does...

http://kayakoutfitting.com/tips/wwcanoe/index.html

[phreon]

Isn't the logical conclusion to this line of thought a boat made out of nothing but minicell? Essentially a man sized foam-boat.

Lay up a giant chunk of foam and carve yourself a spare L'Edge.

Doug