With the "rebirth" of the river-running kayak designs (think R.P.M.) that you can play in being brought back into manufacturer's lines. I would have to say that you may be onto something. The Atom was (IMO) not a great boat but OK, the Fink will certainly fit a niche market but I don't forsee it having too much play potential. Designing a C1 that you can river run, and still play at the better spots on the river is a good idea. Granted, the boat might not link ends, or throw blunts and loops, but big-air enders are still fun and a stable platform breeds confidence.
It would be ideal to see a larger cockpit in width, and height, for good volume and the potential to use... dare I say it???... adjustable footpegs!.... AND a taller saddle for comfort of the bigger fella's.
The sad reality in my view is that there are so few C-boater's vs. the enormous amount of kayaker's especially in the US market. There seems to be a new kayak design every other week which is also IMO hurting the boat manufacturer's market. You can purchase a brand new kayak left on a dealer's shelf for at least a third off during the same year. Where as a new canoe might loose a $100 in value if it is a good design... take the Ocoee for example. The boat has been out for over 10 years now and it has finally in the last few years "really" taken off... Bell purchased it from Dagger/Watermark for "some" reason. If you are working with a manufacturer who has patience and doesn't demand high sales of the boat initially, the long term reward may be there. C-boater's are the slowest to change boat's and that is a double edged sword for us.
Lastly it would be great to see more folks trying this side of the sport. Many of the really good c-boaters of the last few years have stopped paddling competitively or altogether for various reasons. It would be great to see another manufacturer step up and really support and promote C-boating. Robson (a small company) has been a big surprise of the c-boat's. The Fink and CUFly (daring designs?) alone speak volumes where as Watermark and Confluence have pulled away from due to low sales figures. Pyranha has given us two great boat's in a plastic that is durable, and come outfitted! Esquif is also one to be proud of and I give a hat's off to Bell who has jumped headlong into whitewater.
It would great to see some new video's out there as well as articles in magazines, etc. It's up to us as a group of paddlers to do this though... as the publisher of a magazine reminded me this weekend.
Sorry I went long on this... but if "we" want new design's... well we have to buy them rather than convert them... and I'm recently guilty of that.
Thanks for your interest Corran!
Craig
C1 market
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Craig Smerda
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Mike W.
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My $.02
How many can you sell? I have no idea. I think that first you design a good boat. Sales will follow. Here are a few things that I feel are problems with converted boats.
Length: C-1's need to be longer than K-1's to have the same speed. I'm thinking that the "ideal" (ideal, ha, what a joke) boat would be around 8' long for speed. I currently paddle a converted big ez for play. It is WAY too slow as C-1, much faster as K-1. That's why I'm trading my cascade for an amp C-1. For real speed I paddle my 'glass Viper C-1.
Cockpit size & shape: Wavesport makes nice, wide cockpit openings. This is good for C-1. I've tried a Disco & a Necky Rip C-1, both had openings that were way too narrow where my fat thighs were. Look at where a C-1er is in the boat. We are forward of the K-1 position (requiring custom made skirts). We are also higher in the boat. When I bought my big ez I found that outfitting it so that I faced the stern would fit me better in the boat. The tall end of the cockpit needs to be at the back. This way the cockpit rim can help support hip & back pads. Just look at a converted boat, the hip & back pads stick up out of the cockpit. Another advantage of the "high backed cockpit" would be skirt longevity. If it clears all of the padding there's no wear. Also, we don't need all of that space where the kayker's knees go. That's just something to bang knuckles on.
Width: Yeah, it needs to be wider than a K-1. I'm thinking in the 27" range. I know that width kills speed, but if you're upside down you really loose speed.
I think that a fast, stable boat with a C-1 specific cockpit that surfs like a feind & can stern squirt would sell. Something like a plastic Groove.
Others have already given you an idea that you didn't ask for. I too agree that a solid, comfortable outfitting system that is somehow adjustable to convert a wide array of K-1's to C-1 would sell. Probably a great outfitting system would outsell a good boat.
Length: C-1's need to be longer than K-1's to have the same speed. I'm thinking that the "ideal" (ideal, ha, what a joke) boat would be around 8' long for speed. I currently paddle a converted big ez for play. It is WAY too slow as C-1, much faster as K-1. That's why I'm trading my cascade for an amp C-1. For real speed I paddle my 'glass Viper C-1.
Cockpit size & shape: Wavesport makes nice, wide cockpit openings. This is good for C-1. I've tried a Disco & a Necky Rip C-1, both had openings that were way too narrow where my fat thighs were. Look at where a C-1er is in the boat. We are forward of the K-1 position (requiring custom made skirts). We are also higher in the boat. When I bought my big ez I found that outfitting it so that I faced the stern would fit me better in the boat. The tall end of the cockpit needs to be at the back. This way the cockpit rim can help support hip & back pads. Just look at a converted boat, the hip & back pads stick up out of the cockpit. Another advantage of the "high backed cockpit" would be skirt longevity. If it clears all of the padding there's no wear. Also, we don't need all of that space where the kayker's knees go. That's just something to bang knuckles on.
Width: Yeah, it needs to be wider than a K-1. I'm thinking in the 27" range. I know that width kills speed, but if you're upside down you really loose speed.
I think that a fast, stable boat with a C-1 specific cockpit that surfs like a feind & can stern squirt would sell. Something like a plastic Groove.
Others have already given you an idea that you didn't ask for. I too agree that a solid, comfortable outfitting system that is somehow adjustable to convert a wide array of K-1's to C-1 would sell. Probably a great outfitting system would outsell a good boat.
Being on the younger side of probably the vast majority of c boaters and people on this board, being a newly aged 20 year old, i would never buy a boat that wouldn;t carwheel, blunt, or loop. If i wanted a boat that didn't i would buy a bigger volume river runner/creeker. I don;t think i'll ever own a boat anymore that is good at everything. I can still make it around fine in my kingpin 6.2 c1. Ya i'll agree at the end of the day, im way more tired keeping up to all my kayaking freinds riping around the ottawa, but hey that's why i c1. Would i buy a rodeo specific c1 play boat? hades ya, it would just make sence. would i buy a fast big water creeker c1 spefic..hades ya. would i buy an all around river runner with stern squirt possiblity? No. To me those boats arn't as fun. Unfortuntly (for me) the vast majority of c boaters probably would rip around in one of those, where i would never consider it. On that note is there alot of young c boaters out there? I hope it's not fading away, i convert as many people as i can. lol.
As far as roit making a c1. If you do, good luck, and make your dam cockpts bigger. Im a pretty small dude, and it was a pain in my butt to get in and out of a converted techno.
As for me and my boats, Im pretty sure i'll be converting the latest freestyle and creeker kayaks for a long while...maybe my veiws will change when im in my late 30's and fit the demographic.
As far as roit making a c1. If you do, good luck, and make your dam cockpts bigger. Im a pretty small dude, and it was a pain in my butt to get in and out of a converted techno.
As for me and my boats, Im pretty sure i'll be converting the latest freestyle and creeker kayaks for a long while...maybe my veiws will change when im in my late 30's and fit the demographic.
Drop Waterfalls, Not Bombs
Corran, what about a redistributing agreement
First, I agree with Kevin. Give me a stable and quick big water/creeker and rodeo C1. A rodeo C1 taking advantage of the C1er's HUGE leverage advantage.
What I've been reading is the C1 market is smaller and more unpredictable -- not a guaranteed profit center. The only way is for someone to take the risk to answer this question.
What about letting another manufacturer take the C1 boat risk. There is a brand new manufacturer in Finland taking this risk with the WheelBoy C1 rodeo boat. Drakkar is trying to setup distribution, which is much harder than a newbie manufacturer every imagines. So, what about Roit providing the North American distribution (or OEM) arrangement? It will definitely answer the C1 market potential question. Roit gets the market research, with minimal risk, and even some profit. Drakkar gets a very important C1 distribution channel it despiritely needs.
Evaluate Drakkars and see if there is a profit center for Roit.
http://www.backwashkayaks.com/drakkar/p ... elboy.html
What I've been reading is the C1 market is smaller and more unpredictable -- not a guaranteed profit center. The only way is for someone to take the risk to answer this question.
What about letting another manufacturer take the C1 boat risk. There is a brand new manufacturer in Finland taking this risk with the WheelBoy C1 rodeo boat. Drakkar is trying to setup distribution, which is much harder than a newbie manufacturer every imagines. So, what about Roit providing the North American distribution (or OEM) arrangement? It will definitely answer the C1 market potential question. Roit gets the market research, with minimal risk, and even some profit. Drakkar gets a very important C1 distribution channel it despiritely needs.
Evaluate Drakkars and see if there is a profit center for Roit.
http://www.backwashkayaks.com/drakkar/p ... elboy.html
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Corran
Hummm
many good points.
I think the Thomas Fink kayak answers the need for a good river running-creeker. it looks like an awesome design really, and i know Thomas well and have nothing but respect for him (and i beat him at a few rodeo's in C1 too... ha ha ha ha...even though to be fair he is 10x the C paddler I'll ever be).
So if I were to do a C1, it'd be a rodeo boat. The Viper style kayak is already well taken care of with the Viper - ripping about at high speed stern squirting etc... What I'm seeing more an more of is Space kadets and Kingpins converted, and those boats are harly optimised for C1. Slow, unballanced etc...
Designing and selling a C1 are two different things. Maybe the market will create itself if a boat exists. Really, i think the "Disco" of C1's is needed. Rips rodeo style, but... tis also a very very adept "easier river runner". Not creeker... but river runner so you can get places you'll struggle with in a kingpin, but because of the leverage the C1 has, rip like a Kingpin. A great kayaker can huck the Disco as well as any new design. An acerage C1 paddler should be able to do the same thing because of the leverage overcomming the extra length (6'6" as opposed to 6'3").
The Wheelboy - its a plastic boat of composite?
Corran
I think the Thomas Fink kayak answers the need for a good river running-creeker. it looks like an awesome design really, and i know Thomas well and have nothing but respect for him (and i beat him at a few rodeo's in C1 too... ha ha ha ha...even though to be fair he is 10x the C paddler I'll ever be).
So if I were to do a C1, it'd be a rodeo boat. The Viper style kayak is already well taken care of with the Viper - ripping about at high speed stern squirting etc... What I'm seeing more an more of is Space kadets and Kingpins converted, and those boats are harly optimised for C1. Slow, unballanced etc...
Designing and selling a C1 are two different things. Maybe the market will create itself if a boat exists. Really, i think the "Disco" of C1's is needed. Rips rodeo style, but... tis also a very very adept "easier river runner". Not creeker... but river runner so you can get places you'll struggle with in a kingpin, but because of the leverage the C1 has, rip like a Kingpin. A great kayaker can huck the Disco as well as any new design. An acerage C1 paddler should be able to do the same thing because of the leverage overcomming the extra length (6'6" as opposed to 6'3").
The Wheelboy - its a plastic boat of composite?
Corran
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cosmik debris
Corran, I agree with you there. I think that a disco-esque playboat is needed. I think some people may have misunderstood the orginial question, I thought you meant like a GT style boat or something. I think that there is a market for a boat like the Wheelboy, albeit it's surely quite small. I would love to see a boat like this, as would a lot of other people on this board I'm sure. It seems to me that Cboating is becoming a 'fun little hobby' for buttboaters in their spare time. That's fine, cause it creates a larger market for the rest of us. I think they idea about maybe working with Drakkar would be good, then you help the little guy out (corporate kayaking sucks). I'm rambling now, but I do like the idea of a C-1 playboat that can run rivers as well. I have a Bliss-Stick RAD 175 right now which is fun for freestyle, but it's made me scared to run the Ocoee. I used to own a disco and now kick myself for selling it sometimes. Anyways, good luck.
will
P.s. Kevin, you aren't the only young C boater out there...I think it's actually growing in popularity.
will
P.s. Kevin, you aren't the only young C boater out there...I think it's actually growing in popularity.
WheelBoy info
The WheelBoy has evolved as a composite, but being produced this spring in plastic. There are sections of the website describing it's evolution. Here is the website's entry point
http://www.backwashkayaks.com/drakkar/index.html
Their website has hints about a future creeker and open boat -- no details yet.
I personally have converted a Robson NRG to C1. I get a great deal of attention from the envious kayakers. Upper body leverage in a rodeo boat is just amazing and is a HUGE advantage. Several young bloods have expressed interest in giving C1 a try--we'll see this year.
I have not experienced a C1 designed rodeo boat, so I find the WheelBoy very interesting. I can only guess and dream what a 28 inch width and C1 designed cockpit balance might provide me. I have never been in a Groove
My fear is European C1ers get this boat and give excellent reviews (and action pictures / videos) and it's impossible to cost effectively get one delivered to the US.
I think C1 is like telemark skiing. It's small niche market with growth that has caught the eye of larger downhill ski manufacturers. You know a market is growing by the number of new models introduced in a year -- it's definitely on a high growth curve. Telemark skiing will always be a niche market because of it's advanced skill requirements. Niche markets usually have a more dedicated set of customers.
My closing statement is I started WW kayaking 10 years ago (midwest, east coast, & southeast). 5 years ago I tried a Cascade in a lake & basic class II river. The following year I purchased an Atom and learned to do class II/III. Frustrated by the Atom's length, I converted a Wavesport Z and started experiencing the HUGE leverage advantage, once I got the balance and single blade control going. The Z was now my play boat. 2 years ago I started looking for a new C1 rodeo spud boat, so I started demoing boats as kayaks and mentally assessed their C1-ability. Last year I went exclusively C1 and figured out how to quickly convert a demo kayak to a C1 and I was able to test-drive several boats. I bought the Robson NRG when I returned the demo. I'm very interested in the Finkenmeister, but want to hear some real feedback from folks of similar size (6' 180 lbs).
http://www.backwashkayaks.com/drakkar/index.html
Their website has hints about a future creeker and open boat -- no details yet.
I personally have converted a Robson NRG to C1. I get a great deal of attention from the envious kayakers. Upper body leverage in a rodeo boat is just amazing and is a HUGE advantage. Several young bloods have expressed interest in giving C1 a try--we'll see this year.
I have not experienced a C1 designed rodeo boat, so I find the WheelBoy very interesting. I can only guess and dream what a 28 inch width and C1 designed cockpit balance might provide me. I have never been in a Groove
My fear is European C1ers get this boat and give excellent reviews (and action pictures / videos) and it's impossible to cost effectively get one delivered to the US.
I think C1 is like telemark skiing. It's small niche market with growth that has caught the eye of larger downhill ski manufacturers. You know a market is growing by the number of new models introduced in a year -- it's definitely on a high growth curve. Telemark skiing will always be a niche market because of it's advanced skill requirements. Niche markets usually have a more dedicated set of customers.
My closing statement is I started WW kayaking 10 years ago (midwest, east coast, & southeast). 5 years ago I tried a Cascade in a lake & basic class II river. The following year I purchased an Atom and learned to do class II/III. Frustrated by the Atom's length, I converted a Wavesport Z and started experiencing the HUGE leverage advantage, once I got the balance and single blade control going. The Z was now my play boat. 2 years ago I started looking for a new C1 rodeo spud boat, so I started demoing boats as kayaks and mentally assessed their C1-ability. Last year I went exclusively C1 and figured out how to quickly convert a demo kayak to a C1 and I was able to test-drive several boats. I bought the Robson NRG when I returned the demo. I'm very interested in the Finkenmeister, but want to hear some real feedback from folks of similar size (6' 180 lbs).
Corran, I support the idea of the disco type C1, but keep in mind the comment above somewhere about hull speed. If I was to ditch my space cadet, it would be for a C1 playboat which would do everything fairly well play wise but also have decent hull speed. How can the good longer (by the last few years!) conversions of the foreplay and delerious C1 conversions be considered in making your disco style C1. Probably difficult to design a longer hull that would still bounce like the latest K1 spud boats.
I have paddled a number of riot conversions, but didn't convert an air 55. I got too fed up with the narrow cockpit, plus the boat's short stern looked like too much to deal with. I changed over to LL, resale, decent cockpit size and a decently balanced boat for C1 freestyle.
I also spent a little time in a plastic groove (a couple of years ago now). That project was going somewhere good, too bad it didn't make it.
If Riot builds a decent looking C1 playboat I'll probably buy one, depending on the volume. If it has the small riot cockpit though I would probably pass.
cheers
I have paddled a number of riot conversions, but didn't convert an air 55. I got too fed up with the narrow cockpit, plus the boat's short stern looked like too much to deal with. I changed over to LL, resale, decent cockpit size and a decently balanced boat for C1 freestyle.
I also spent a little time in a plastic groove (a couple of years ago now). That project was going somewhere good, too bad it didn't make it.
If Riot builds a decent looking C1 playboat I'll probably buy one, depending on the volume. If it has the small riot cockpit though I would probably pass.
cheers
I don't know how many you can sell, but for shure the reason why many people paddles converted kayaks is that there are not good plastic C1 on the market untill now. If you want a competitive rodeo C1 you must paddle a conversion (at least untill the wheelboy comes out).
Another reason (for me) is: try to sell a 2° hand C1 in Italy.... I still have my ooooold GyraMax
Another reason (for me) is: try to sell a 2° hand C1 in Italy.... I still have my ooooold GyraMax
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Jan_dettmer
- CBoats Addict
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the wheelboy looks like a interesting design to me. WHen i look at the specs, i think it's too long, and it reminds me of a LL session with more volume. ANd i think, i won't be able to throw that down like i can a spud k1 converted. But i haven't tried it yet. but intially it looks long carwheeling machine, but really people want an arial machine. Hence, all the kingping, space cadet conversions.
Vincent Dupont is one sick c1 paddler, and i do believe he is on the Roit team, Incorperating this guys into the desgns i think would have a huge impact, since they are on the leading edge of c1 freestyle, im not to sure if theres any other c1 paddlers that rip like vincent do on the roit team, but he sure represents canada well. Imput from him in a boat im sure would only have positive benefets and maybe lead the direction of the sport. espically if he were able to do well in major competeions (which he is doing) in a c1 specfic desgin, it migh help turn some heads.
Im interested to see what the future has to hold for roit and c1, none of the roit boats have ever tickled my fancy for c1 conversion, but i look forward too see what you whip up.
Vincent Dupont is one sick c1 paddler, and i do believe he is on the Roit team, Incorperating this guys into the desgns i think would have a huge impact, since they are on the leading edge of c1 freestyle, im not to sure if theres any other c1 paddlers that rip like vincent do on the roit team, but he sure represents canada well. Imput from him in a boat im sure would only have positive benefets and maybe lead the direction of the sport. espically if he were able to do well in major competeions (which he is doing) in a c1 specfic desgin, it migh help turn some heads.
Im interested to see what the future has to hold for roit and c1, none of the roit boats have ever tickled my fancy for c1 conversion, but i look forward too see what you whip up.
Drop Waterfalls, Not Bombs
REAL WheelBoy Metric Conversion Details
Wheelboy details:
Length: 195cm
Width: 72cm
Volume: 56 gal
Paddler weight: 67 kg -90 kg
Bow rocker: 19 cm
Stern rocker: 15 cm
195 cm = 6.39764 Feet
72 cm = 28.3465 Inches
19 cm = 7.48031 Inches
15 cm = 5.90551 Inches
67 kg = 147.7 pounds
90 kg = 240.1 pounds
http://www.sciencemadesimple.net/conversions.html
Length: 195cm
Width: 72cm
Volume: 56 gal
Paddler weight: 67 kg -90 kg
Bow rocker: 19 cm
Stern rocker: 15 cm
195 cm = 6.39764 Feet
72 cm = 28.3465 Inches
19 cm = 7.48031 Inches
15 cm = 5.90551 Inches
67 kg = 147.7 pounds
90 kg = 240.1 pounds
http://www.sciencemadesimple.net/conversions.html
C1 Throwdown--Ride'm Cowboy!
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Bruce Farrenkopf
- CBoats Addict
- Posts: 339
- Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2003 3:35 am
- Location: Reno, NV
Corran,
We really seem to be our own worst enemy. Here you are inquiring about the C1 market, perhaps because you're exploring the possibility of introducing a new C1 (read that designed to be a C1) and most of us are talking you out of it. Are you encouraged at all due to the interest in the Finkenmeister on this forum? It might be worthwhile to wait and see how well the Finkenmeister does sales-wise and reputation-wise. I'm hoping for the best.
I would like to see real plastics C1's introduced more frequently than a boat every 7-10 years. I have converted some kayak designs into C1's and I'm not impressed with their performance as C1's. They are workable but definitely a compromise.
Thanks for your inquirey. It definitely is getting some interest here.
Bruce
We really seem to be our own worst enemy. Here you are inquiring about the C1 market, perhaps because you're exploring the possibility of introducing a new C1 (read that designed to be a C1) and most of us are talking you out of it. Are you encouraged at all due to the interest in the Finkenmeister on this forum? It might be worthwhile to wait and see how well the Finkenmeister does sales-wise and reputation-wise. I'm hoping for the best.
I would like to see real plastics C1's introduced more frequently than a boat every 7-10 years. I have converted some kayak designs into C1's and I'm not impressed with their performance as C1's. They are workable but definitely a compromise.
Thanks for your inquirey. It definitely is getting some interest here.
Bruce
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Larry H
please!
Corran,
Please, please, please, please, please. I'm creaming just thinking of a disco style c-1!
Don't worry about sales figures,you've got the right idea. A hot little play boat would outsell the Atom 3 or 4 to 1 for sure. But don't do it for the money, do it because it is the right thing to do
Be a Cool Guy. Please! We need it bad.
Please, please, please, please, please. I'm creaming just thinking of a disco style c-1!
Don't worry about sales figures,you've got the right idea. A hot little play boat would outsell the Atom 3 or 4 to 1 for sure. But don't do it for the money, do it because it is the right thing to do
Be a Cool Guy. Please! We need it bad.