Shoulder pain and rolling a canoe.

[Pierre LaPaddelle]

Well, OK -- we've moved past 'what to do when you've tweaked your shoulder' (-- take drugs, go to physio, retire from active living. . .)

Now we're moving toward 'how to roll better.' Great! Something more proactive!

I know this topic has been featured on previous threads, but personally, I can use the refresher.

sbroam reminds us to keep the forehead on the paddle shaft. Thank you.

Einar mentions keeping the paddle in front of 90 degrees from the hull. Good tip.

Great stuff!

For me -- it's hard to put 'hip snap' into action. Instead, I remind myself to: 1. pull up on my on-side knee, and 2. push my head toward my on side, as my paddle wanders across with minimal pressure from the arm-pull.

Help! More tips. . . !

Fill up the page, wholly rollers!

Thanks!

Rick

[Bob P]

Get thee to a Doctor! Something similar happened to me and it was a torn rotator cuff. Happened during the roll when my blade went from eddy to main current. Didn't hurt at the time, but the pain got worse with time, and I ended up with a frozen shoulder. Lots of rehab required.

[scott curtis]

i like the stick it out there and low brace. my shoulder is a mess. separated the bones in an accident years ago. it clicks. but tennis players get tennis elbow. i believe u got fainted goat syndrone~ scott

[craig]

what sbroam said! thats how I learned (low brace roll) and if I lift my head up too soon, it becomes all muscle, and the hip snap loses it's snap, and the roll fails. Keep you're forhead on the paddle shaft and use your knees / hips to right the boat. then bring your head in low sweeping it just over the gunnels/air bag. Never had issues with my shoulders

[Einar]

When learning or practicing I ask students to deflate the boats airbags by 30%. This makes the boat tippy when righted and full of water but... it makes the boat roll freely and allows the learner to work on the body positioning and the technique, leaving muscle and speed till later.
The boat will float lower in the water but this gives the student a tighter circle to complete instead of having to climb the "hill" over the top of the chine.

I also ask them to loosen the Pulling thigh strap to a hands width of gap so that there is a loose snap in that knees motion. It seems to help with the muscle memory and it overcomes the initial confusion as to which knee is to do what when they are upside down. It gives some punch to the start, getting game going. Gradually they can tighten it.

I explain to them the principle of the bikes gears to help with their imagery when they are upside down and out of communication. It is not enough to explain what; it is necessary to explain why.
Simply put, the extended paddle blade is the front largest chain ring and the tight "nose over the gunwale" is the smallest rear chain ring, giving the best, most powerful gearing. Just yelling at them to "keep the head down, keep the head down" doesn't seem to cut through the confusion. If they know why they will police themselves.

** Important. When deflating the airbags make sure the grommeted ends are tied down otherwise the loose bag will float out between the webbing and get in the the way of the head sweep. Sorry Ellen.

All right, I told you that learning to roll is personal and head spacey. Give me your best shot, I gave you mine.

[Kelly-Rand]

Head on paddle shaft.

I have had no shoulder problems since I changed my technique. I am not always successful but an occasional swim is better than no paddling at all.

[sbroam]

...
Make sure you are upside down when he falls off.

ROFL!

Good stuff in your other post, too - I like the deflated bag idea...

Oh,and staying upright works, but, yeah, boring... got the roll and confidence jumped. My paddling confidence tracks with my roll confidence.

[pyc1]

Head down is a big one that everybody's mentioned.

One minor thing that hasn't been mentioned is timing. A roll is a bit like snapping a whip- it starts with knees and hips and then travels up to your torso. You drag your torso/head in a second later, after your lower body has righted the hull.

My mantra when rolling is "I am going to roll up while putting the least amount of pressure on my paddle."

[yarnellboat]

That's a long mantra! But good comments all.

Pat.

[Todhunter]

Good stuff!

Things I am going to try:

1 - Head stays on paddle shaft
2 - Concentrate on what my knees are doing
3 - Start moving my lower body and finish with my upper body (like a whip!)

[marclamenace]

I actually split the 'push' phase in two, switching progressively from 1- head on shaft (eyes to the bottom of the river and hip snap)from 2- kiss the bag and low brace. Guess that describes the upper body whip motion mentioned above...

For me I didn't felt confident with my roll until a couple of pool sessions in a big C1 and a pair of water googles. These boats are so easy to roll you can slow down the movement, get both your head around it and build muscle memory too. In an OC you have to do it all a bit stronger and faster not to fail.

[Todhunter]

I actually split the 'push' phase in two, switching progressively from 1- head on shaft (eyes to the bottom of the river and hip snap)from 2- kiss the bag and low brace. Guess that describes the upper body whip motion mentioned above...

For me I didn't felt confident with my roll until a couple of pool sessions in a big C1 and a pair of water googles. These boats are so easy to roll you can slow down the movement, get both your head around it and build muscle memory too. In an OC you have to do it all a bit stronger and faster not to fail.

Yeah, I've been wearing a diving mask at my pool sessions so I can see what I'm doing. Plus having sight gives me a little more confidence while under water. Once I can do it with the mask, I will start trying it without the mask.

[Walsh]

Lot of good stuff in this tread. Yes, see a sports quack immediately. But on to roll technique.

The first craft I learned to roll was an OC, and the term "hip snap" did not make any sense to me at the time. It still doesn't. When I messed around with a decked playboat, then the idea of a 'snap' with the hips made a little more sense, but I think it's an inapt term imported from k-boating. I think of it as an 'ab crunch' or 'sit-up' - an OC roll is hardly a 'snap' and doesn't have much to do with the hips.

For me, a successful roll depends on taking the time to set up properly. It takes an extra half-second to force myself to get the paddle on my offside gunwhale, but for me that's the cost of a predictable roll.

The second key thing that is difficult to force myself to do is to rotate my torso fully to face the bottom of the river, and get squarely on top of the paddle shaft. My instinct is to cling to the hull, carp for air, and reach for the sky with the paddle. Nope. Gotta reach out and face the bottom of the river, or it will be one of those failed rolls where I never quite decide between a low and a high brace.

Finally, I need to forget about the dam "hip snap." I have hip blocks in my OC and I still don't enjoy anywhere near the hip control of a k-1. My hips just aren't that connected to the boat. Plus, in a kayak, the hips are at the deepest and widest part of the boat. With an 8" saddle, I have no leverage with my hips. I initiate with my point of greatest connection and leverage: my knees. I think about pushing hard into my onside knee and pulling up with my offside knee. As soon as pushing and pulling with my knees gets the hull moving, then it's a big abdominal crunch. I keep pulling until the hull is back underneath me. Wait as long as I can stand, and then it's finally time for a low brace to get the head up.

In practice, this works out to
- taking a second to calm down
- mentally ignoring the hull and fully engaging the water with my torso
- once my torso is egaged, using my knees and then abdominals to pull the hull back under my torso

[marclamenace]

The first craft I learned to roll was an OC, and the term "hip snap" did not make any sense to me at the time. It still doesn't. ...

...I have hip blocks in my OC and I still don't enjoy anywhere near the hip control of a k-1. My hips just aren't that connected to the boat. Plus, in a kayak, the hips are at the deepest and widest part of the boat. With an 8" saddle, I have no leverage with my hips. I initiate with my point of greatest connection and leverage: my knees. I think about pushing hard into my onside knee and pulling up with my offside knee.

Hip snap or side ab crunch all sounds appropriate to me... But if your hips aren't connected enough woggling around even with hip blocks that definitely creates a problem especially for rolling. I suspect you might have a bulkhead + pegs? Maybe you should try adding high thigh straps. It helped me a whole lot back when I had the prelude. Carving the bulkhead to get a better fit might also help if your thigh are not touching it enough up there.

[pyc1]

That's a long mantra!

Well, I say it really fast, like an auctioneer.