Well I think that if there were more C1's out there on the market place than more people would be keen to try it and see the light . At this stage only people really keen to give C1 a go convert a kayak cause lots of people don't know where to start. If you gave them a C1 than they would not have a reasion not to use one and more people would get into it and more boats would get sold. You can't ask how many boats would get sold when the market has never had a up to date C1's, all the other C1's have came out too late and every one has been in shorter more playfull boats, why would we want to take a step back. I know when you put the groove into one of your catalogs a number of years ago a lot of people were looking at it saying that could be fun, but of cause it was never avabile . So I say go for it what do you have to lose, I would be keen for one if the price of getting one over here is right, or the if every one on this board is saying how great they are well I would have to splash out and see for my self. Also over how may years are you looking at making it? and would there be newer models coming out as you find ways of making it better? if your only interested in making one C1 and than leaving us to convert k1s again don't wast your time . If there was some one out there who kept making newer ones then I would say most of us would suport them insteard of people making one off designs.
Well thats me idears any way I hope it helps you.
Wayne
See, the probelm is this. The K1 market... regardless of size is sp;lit into... what... 5 or 10 factions. The Air type people. The Disco people. the Booster People. The tekno people. The Big Gun People and so on...
The C1 group, is just as split, except its 1/500th of the size to begin with. So, 100 US C1ers seem to be split into 5 catagories = 20 sales per design. Errr..... not a lot.
This is normal, but just the response from this question shows me hopw different each paddler is and how different of a design they all want.
I'm still thining, but it seems that the question is not what size the market is, but rather would ALL C1'ers come together to support a C1 design even if it were not exactly what they were looking for. If someone took the effort to address the marekt, and baring in mind you can;t make everyone happy, would C1ers in general support it, or go.. hummm, "na, I'll just convert another kayak".
If there was an outstanding new design I would purchase it new (vs. used as I normally do). Once I see a finkenmeister I may be doing just that...we'll C.
After working on my Mr. Clean for a while, I am tired of trying to get my outfitting right, if there were a boat already outfitted or a much better pedestal to be inserted I would seriously look into it, especially if these were play specific. But being a college student I probably couldn't buy it new. I really appreciate the interest from someone like Corran and hopefully as I become a better paddler more options will be open for me in the future.
I think sales would be slow, but if the boat design were versatile enough, and you were patient, it could sell enough to satisfy you.
Even though I can get kayaks for cheap, I'd buy a specifically designed C1, and I think many others would. In the long run, if the boat were well designed, it would probably generate a bigger market than currently exists by attracting more kayakers and to C1.
Because your average C1er struggles with the hull speed and stability of a spud boat, but still wants to throw a boat around a little, my impression of the 'best selling C1' would be this:
-Comes in 2 sizes in the 7 to 7.5 foot range, 27" & 28" wide.
-need to be able to spread the knees as far as possible.
-reasonable secondary stability would be a relief to many.
-cockpit that helps hold you in the boat (higher in the back is interesting?), rim doesn't dig into bigger thighs.
-bow is low volume but distruted in a way that makes the boat friendly to paddle. No need to design a bow around the legs and knees so there must be a way to do this!
-stern should be maximized for carving. I really like the S:6 stern. I can really make it react to the big weight shifts that a C1er can do. (sorry have never had the chance to try a Riot C1)
-bow and stern balanced, very similar volume.
-avoid any edges that are too "grabby"
-modern planing hull design oriented towards spinning and carving
-reasonable chance of getting a few ends without going into monster holes
-Outfitting that is easily adjustable so others can try the boat easily
(adjustable: saddle height, bulkhead or thigh strap anchors, safe toe blocks)
-cockpit that fits current kayak spray skirts
-Outfitting that is ready to go with easy adjustment
-price comparable to a kayak (yeah, I'm dreaming)
-well distributed, easy to demo and buy
I realize we are all divided into camps, but the 'do it all' boat of the kayak world seems to me like the safest bet. Also remember that many paddlers have more than one boat. They will probably always be able to get a high performance spud to convert, or something like an Atom or Fink, in addition to their 'all-rounder'.
I paddle an S:6 200, and am buying a S:8 235 so I can be upright more often and make a ferry once in a while. I'm 6'2", 200lbs and paddle continuous, cold water rivers with lots of wood in British Columbia, and work in the paddlesports industry.
Thanks for asking for our feed back. I hope you design something!
Corran why don't make a kayak that would be also a great conversion? You can design a boat that born like a kayak but that was thinked also to be a good c1, that's not impossible (some kayaks are allready better conversion than other); than you can offer that in kayak or C1 version.
Well, I've read much and that demonstrates that there is wonderful interest in C1 specific designs and I thank all for their thoughts on this all-important topic.
I think that a specifically designed boat as a C1 would sell well. Think of the FINK, it is not a prefect C1 for all but many boaters are interested in it and making arrangements to get one because it is the best option. It has pros and cons like any boat but for C1ers, the pros of being designed specifically for as a C1 outweighs the cons that do not perfectly match the individual’s ideas of the prefect C1.
For example, I paddle a converted K1 for overnight river running and I would prefer the FINK although it may be a little big for small paddlers like myself but it offers the advantages of a C1 cockpit, outfitting, and width (and all the other numerous points that previous C1 paddlers have mentioned or posted on the forum). I’ll learn to deal with the bigness.
Also, think of the Ocoee. People are still looking to buy them. A well-designed C1 should last more than one year, much longer than the short life of a kayak, i.e. months. Similar for the Prelude, its life is longer than most kayaks.
For background, I paddle a 9’ Ocoee, a WS EZ (as C1), and a Prijon Chopper (also as C1).
This was very interesting reading- I think Dagger had an advantage because their kayaks were in every shop, so it was relatively easy to get an ATOM in most shops, so people could demo them- For the few c1 boats designed as c1s its hard for people to test paddle them. to know whether they should buy one or not. I've never seen a Fink, yet I know Bruce and Martin own one.
I think there is a market, obviously, for C1s designed as C1s- realistically I figured it was small, as I see about 5 canoes per100 kayaks and per 100 canoes you see about 5-10 c1s.
Interestingly, I'm not sure if the Canoe/C1 paddler is more analytical and handy or if the lack of products available has made them design/fabricate their own parts, which in turn keeps companies from designing c1 speceific parts-
I think C1ing is slightly on the rise, as since september last year, I have almost always seen at least 1 c1 on the Nanty where as the preceding year, I don't remember seeing any- the other interesting fact is I think almost all c1 boat owners own more than one boat-
I guess I have a charmed life- I started paddling in 2003 which was a very wet year in NC and from what I can tell there is a canoeing rebirth, Drakkar, SHaggy Designs, Esquif and Robson have all introduced some awesome c1s or canoes. Except for Esquif the other 3 companies offer or will offer kayaks in order to make ends meet- I applaud them for venturing into the c1 market- Honestly, a c1 designed boat paddles better than a conversion- and fortunately there should be one out there to fit almost everyones need- Some of course will be used, but I recommend trying a c1 design before converting a kayak: Cascade, Fink, Fat Boy Marko sent some new photos of the plug-(creekers)
River Runner: Atom/Hornet/Wide Ride
River Play: Viper/Sith(play?)
Play: Wheelboy/BigBoy
And "Sir Adam Sports" will be offerring the squirt category: The Maven
Bold is boats I own or have paddled and italic is boats coming soon
In canada, there is no way im going to order a wheelboy without trying it brand spanking new.
I can get a LL boat new at the end of the year, or on sale for cheaper and just convert it. It performs the same as any yaker would say it would, it's just becomes tippier, and a little more edgy.
I love my vision, it rocks.
What you have to look at and ask yourself is why are the best freestyle C1'ers in the world paddling converted boats? Cause there sponsered and getting free boats, and all those huge companies aren't interested in making a c1 specific boat, cause there's no market....
They are still pushing the sport, everytime they paddle, could they push it even more if they had a pure c1 freestyle boat?
All in All the more companies that start producing c1 boats, and the greater avaiblilty these boats are to the boaters the better. But it's definitly a small market on the grandscale of the paddlesports industry.
Have you had anyone who tried a Wheelboy who did not want to buy one afterward (price aside, they are pricey)? Every one I saw try one really seemed to like it, well maybe one exception who's name i won't mention.
Two paddlers tried the wheelboy and dont want one. (price aside) One the wheelboy was too small,and the other can use one whenever he likes cause he helps me out with boat transfers etc...I also loaned the boat out to another paddler who liked the boat, I'm not sure if money is an issue or not, but I know they had fun in the boat.
Kevin,
I cant believe the Canadian taxes! I'm not sure how to overcome this hurdle. I'm planning a trip to Canada for 06- I want to go this year, but my time is too limitted. So far the few paddlers I met from Canada, Steve, Martin and Martin, and talked to have been super cool.
Demos-
The reason I brought up the demos was I'm debating to different options to make boats available for demo- one is to mail them to a location- If 4 boaters chipped in this would be about $40 each for the demo, and I would let the boat out 2-3 weeks-basically we would compuile data and ship it to an address.
The other is to offer a store credit for people with a Drakkar or Shaggy Design to get a store $25 credit when they loan their boat to someone whobought a new one
Martin- Im not really in the market for a new boat, but would still love to try the wheelboy. Probably won;t get another boat until im done school, unless i win one. I had to sell my phantom last year... so now im out a open boat too.
Im excicted to see where the c1 and open boat market goes and where Drakkar Goes within the next 2-3 years. Cause that'll be boat purchasing time for me! That's the plan anyway...
I don't know about C1's or the US. I paddle OC and I am in the UK.
Somone told me recently that on average throughout the whole UK only 2 new white water spec canoes are sold per month. When I'm paddling I see mostly kayaks and most C paddlers i see are OC rather than C1.
What I see may not be representitive, I may be looking in the wrong places. The groups I paddle with may be skew my view.
. At this stage only people really keen to give C1 a go convert a kayak cause lots of people don't know where to start. If you gave them a C1 than they would not have a reasion not to use one and more people would get into it and more boats would get sold. You can't ask how many boats would get sold when the market has never had a up to date C1's, all the other C1's have came out too late and every one has been in shorter more playfull boats, why would we want to take a step back. I know when you put the groove into one of your catalogs a number of years ago a lot of people were looking at it saying that could be fun, but of cause it was never avabile 
. So I say go for it what do you have to lose, I would be keen for one if the price of getting one over here is right, or the if every one on this board is saying how great they are well I would have to splash out and see for my self. Also over how may years are you looking at making it? and would there be newer models coming out as you find ways of making it better? if your only interested in making one C1 and than leaving us to convert k1s again don't wast your time 
so now im out a open boat too.