"So what happens if you can't get at your straps?"

[Mission]

For everyone who reckons I should be able to come out with my straps on, I don't think so

I agree. Then again I paddle mostly freestyle so in my experience any outfitting I could wiggle out of left too much play when looping or any other moves that I would be upside down for.
Different horses for different courses, but I prefer a backup release to being able to wiggle out.

What do people reckon for a secondary release point, I was thinking that a breakaway connection which would fail if I paniced and pushed out, but not under normal circumstances, can anyone reccomend something?

I almost always have IR ratchets on my straps, handy for adjustment and you can also get them to release if your quick release fails. I would be worried a breakway connection might break away at a bad moment but I have experimented with split pins etc with some success before.


Have you considered berg buckles? I use them for releases in WWR/Slalom boats and can be picked up very cheap in Cotswolds or the like.

[TheKrikkitWars]

I've used bergbuckles before, they are pretty easy to release, but have a tendancy to slip, so I'd have to add a second slider to the webbing to allow my to eliminate the play.

I'm dead keen on the idea of having a breakaway in my creekboat as a last line of defence. But for the reasons you outline I won't be changing the setup in my playboat any time soon (The only reason I'd change it to match my planned creekboat outfitting would be another big water trip [Zam, Ottawa, New or revisiting the Nile]).

[Larry Horne]

Josh, We had this discussion last year. I tightened up my set up and you were going to revisit yours..guess you forgot
I know your not listening to what i'm saying. But how about posting a pic of your oufitting. I would really like to see it.


My guess here is that all you guys that think your straps have to be super tight:
(I'm talking about river running and creeking..... freesyle is a different beast you need really tight setups.)
1. are at or under the age of 25.
2. have never been in good outfitting that fits.
If you get ripped out of your setup then yeah, somethings wrong with it.
If you can't wet exit without pulling a rip cord then yeah, something is wrong with it!

I keep my setup just kind of medium snug and I do hold on with my legs when i get worked. i don't exactly know how though.
I only run moderate class five (that's california class five as opposed to east coast class five which is (i hear) only california class three )
I've taken some beatings and I have never been ripped out of it. I fell out once last year after about five lame rolls in a long manky rapid and a prolonged offside surf in the bottom hole, followed by my buddy parking on top of me..,that may have been a semi-voluntary ejection
I subsequently tightened it up a smidge, but i can still wet exit.

That was the only time in twenty years of canoeing... well.. except for when I had that damned atom! I fell out of that pos too.

Just sayin (he says, fresh off of rescue training) , it's bad enough just creeking in a canoe, don't make it more sketch than it needs to be. There's at least five places to adjust the outfitting. play around with it. get it dialed before you set up the rip cord.

[xmas0c1c1k1]

well a one pull system is good even if you can wet exit without it why not have some sort of back up. I have two different pull systems to release my straps and I can get out with a little wiggling. my thigh straps cant even get that tight since i dropped my seat super low so i can get out easier now. More ways to make exiting easier is best in my opinion.

[Larry Horne]

i agree one pull is way cool.

even though this thread (and the foot peg thread) is boring as hades because nobody's taking personal jabs at northerners and californians,
it's got me thinking again.

[xmas0c1c1k1]

ha
well you Larry are still outfitting king at this point

I think it would be real easy to set up a one pull system on your pedestal, not saying you should necessarily integrate it in to the design

It really does make a difference for me. I mean I could get out of my boats before and now but it wasn't super fast. With the immediate release of the system I can try an extra roll knowing that when I pull I'm coming out fast.

Send me a free pedestal and I will think of a way to set it up

[oopsiflipped]

bernie told me once he doesn't even need his thigh straps to roll, he is secure enough with the backrest, bulkhead, and hip pads. he has probably forgotten more about cboat outfitting than the rest of us know. and he's a northerner.

[marclamenace]

bernie told me once he doesn't even need his thigh straps to roll, he is secure enough with the backrest, bulkhead, and hip pads. he has probably forgotten more about cboat outfitting than the rest of us know. and he's a northerner.

Still playing with my outfit regularly in my remix and this is exactly what I was aiming for... No luck for now I still need straps... Bernie's bulkhead must be really high and snug.

@ytcanoe

Congrats on the rescue. But to me your story looks like the perfect example of why creek and play outfits are different in the wiggle out and easy wet exit point. You were going downriver in a playboat C1 with both lapstrap and thight strap and this is exactly what nobody should ever do. Yes it was an easy run but still not a secure playspot, the only place where you should go with such a craft (and flatwater!). Going down river you do continuous sets of rapids without scouting and can meet unexpected strainers or other surprises.

I agree on most of larry's post and think a one pull can very easily be setted up out of a saddle like his, simply running a 2'' webbing from the pull handle to the out side of the cockpit, secured on a grab loop.

I can also wiggle out of my actual creek boat setup and can also stay in getting beaten if I wish. I never did it though, as reaching for both skirt and QR was always doable so far for me. As sbroam says, I am happy on class 3-4 too, will just not head for huge holes with consequences below.

[markzak]

The way you stay in your boat with medium tight outfitting is by utilizing the thigh master technique... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkxFWVGqUCg.

Seriously. If you squeeze the heck out of your saddle, you dont need straps to roll and you can paddle really loose in your outfitting... but if you end up in a hole-beatdown situation, you might be ripped out of your boat. I've been ripped out before. We're talking about the difference between easy class V (Upper Yough for me) where i dont really need any outfitting and real class V like the Bottom Moose or Raquette, where I really might get spanked and need to be bomber solid in my boat.

But the thigh master technique is a great way to teach newbies to roll, staying in the outfitting is one the hardest parts of getting a newb to roll.

[sbroam]

OK, I took a page from Yarnellboat's book and a bit of Mr. XMas0c1c1k1's book and came up with this - a simple snapshackle based quick release.

1. snap shackle - an inexpensive brass snap shackle ($15) anchored to the "back bone" with a 1/4 x 4.5" cap screw - this bolt now anchors the snow board binding knee straps, too
2. "anchor strap" - this is a piece of 2" webbing double and grommetted - the grommet is big enough to fit on the snap shackle (with a wee bit of grinding on the snap shackle). I cut two slots in the "back bone" with a Dremel tool - the webbing feeds through that and is secured with a triglide.
3. thigh straps - the lower anchors are now loops that slip over the "anchor strap"
4. "rip cord" - not shown. this is a 1" piece of webbing (retired tie down strap) that runs from the snack shackle out of the cockpit. I'm thinking of adding some velcro to (loosely) secure it to the skirts grab loop.

I paddled with and tested this the other day but refined it a little before taking the pictures. It's secure - no slop, but releases completely with a little tug. If anything, it might release a little too easily... I might add a little friction to the system (via the rip cord) to prevent inadvertant release. I'm pleased.


http://picasaweb.google.com/scott.broam ... 9579966690
http://picasaweb.google.com/scott.broam ... 5523447842
http://picasaweb.google.com/scott.broam ... 6803376194
http://picasaweb.google.com/scott.broam ... 0191909522
http://picasaweb.google.com/scott.broam ... 5350998882
http://picasaweb.google.com/scott.broam ... 9623388370
http://picasaweb.google.com/scott.broam ... 4991396882

[Paddle Power]

Slick set-up!

[gumpy]

wow, that thighmaster link was great! i really got sidetracked...

oh yeah-outfitting blah, blah, blah

[FullGnarlzOC]

i thought this thread was about silky smooth legs

[Larry Horne]

coming in 2011...the suzanne sommers saddle.

[FullGnarlzOC]

ahhahahhahaah