Do you ever...

[french erick]

stop having to fight prejudice on the water?

So they aren't enough Cs where I live to paddle with one lest I travel hundreds of miles. Thus I paddle 90% of my time with kayaks.

Doesn't bother me in the slightest. Used to it, was the same when I was a kid on the slopes...was one of the earliest boarders in amongst skiers, then dropped boarding to start telemarking and was the only free-heeler around. Bar a bit of banter here and there, usually even learned from each other (different vision of a line, approaches...).

What made it easy though is that I was established as a "good rider" on my turf, so I never had to integrate a group.

But being newish to white water, I find it is hard to get out with new folks. As soon as you mention "OC" then plans with unknown people tend to fold.
The people I have been with have no problem whatsoever, they know how reliable (or not) I am.

Am I being over sensitive? (not that I would take offence)
I just wondered if it was a wide spread thing?
And before you say it: No I won't be able to OC in WW with canoeists more often than a handful of times a year ...they're just not enough of us around here (extreme north of Scotland)

[Shep]

Eh... just don't tell them what you are paddling before you meet them at the shuttle. If you are a good fit for paddling partners, you'll know by the end of the first run, and they won't be assuming things because you are in a canoe. If you are a beginner, and tell people that, then I don't think there will be any bad feelings over what you can or can't paddle.

Hope this helps,
Shep

[philcanoe]

For me it's was more a matter of becoming known as a good boater (like you said about other sports), that helped overcome that "oh-no a open canoe" label.

When you get known for being able to hold your own, your pool of available boaters will increase. And before long you'll be able to name drop companions (as well as places n' rivers n' lines n' shuttles), to let unknown folks know that you must be A0K. As for boating primarily with kayakers, that too can be very beneficial as long as they are better than you. For it's easier to get better, if you're always boating with technically better paddlers.

These days it seems the more pressing concern, is if they have enough rack space for a canoe?

[cadster]

It's the "rack space" issue why I only C-1 or kayak these days with an otherwise kayak only trip. I can justify bringing the canoe only to go with other canoers and especially if going tandem. I'm not willing to take the canoe if it adds to the shuttle logistics.

As far as the original question, even if you were a kayaker, it can be difficult to break into whitewater cliques as an outsider.

These days it seems the more pressing concern, is if they have enough rack space for a canoe?

[Lennart]

there is at least 1 guy (jamie) in Perth that was or had a fly.
Perhaps you could paddle together, I think It has more to do with your "newness" to whitewater then anything else. scotland is not the best place to paddle with beginners/intermediates that you do not know. Being in a relatife unknown boat, that certanly is a lot bigger does not help. basicly if I paddle with new people. then there are 2 modes I am in. 1 I give instruction and presume that they have to learn. 2 presume that they know what they are doing on the river we paddle. most of the times you ask before the putin roughly what thier expeirience is and try to see if their skills match up.

You can mkae it easy for new paddling buddies with some of the following things:
paddle with mutual buddies.
bombproof roll
wrt course or similar
expierinece on the river you like to paddle with the new people.
get a good vid of you paddling bolderblast and you will have no problems.
over ther perhaps speak fluent scottish

[Gord]

If I didn't paddle with kayakers, I would have no one to paddle with at home.

It challenges me to run the same lines they do, and it blows them away when I style a line they fumbled on.

They are great guys to paddle with and the beer is always cold at the take out, so who cares what they paddle

[Kelvin]

Hi Erick,

Don't tell them mate, just do what you do. How many of those other boaters would solo sections of the Ubaye? How many of those other boaters take a genuine interest in improving their boating? How many of those other boaters would drive from the North coast of Scotland to the Southern Lakes to boat with mates for the weekend? I also wonder how many of those other boaters were hitting the lines on this sort of stuff when they were new to boating?


French Erick, nailing the line on Force Falls. River Kent.

Mate, you are hardcore! That's all you need to tell them...

Kelvin.

[mattm]

no prejudice seen here in Connecticut, southern New England, los Estados Unidos. Most of my in state friends are kayakers, and gawd there's swarms of them. We get along great, it's been written that some "are going to miss you canoers" when we go our seperate ways on occasion. It might help that I have a pickup truck with racks
http://outdoors.webshots.com/photo/2409 ... 6337dyZlbM

[Jim Michaud]

A kayaker's biggest fear is that they'll be spending too much time rescueing a swimming canoeist and unpinning the canoe. If you can roll the canoe or hardly ever swim the kayakers definitely won't mind your paddling with them. Having bilge pumps in the canoe will help too because they won't have to wait around while you bail or dump the water out.

[scott curtis]

i do find a lot of prejudisism on the rivers.. the biggest time is when someone collides w/ me or i them.. people seem to think this is a reason to get tense. " o i'm so sorry, or some bs like that. i like the bump answer.. i paddle w/ alot of canoes.. and its universal, to rafts, yaks, ect. i holler bump.. i been trying to teach people this for years but it aint gonna catch on.. i just holler 'bump.'. and if i feel their gaze , i smile.. and they understand.. poeple are forever trying to make something out of nothing no matter who u paddle w/ .. photon has a point , get known as someone who can~

[french erick]

Cheers all for advice.
I'll be sly and silent on my chosen craft and see where it gets me
I really want to increase the pool of paddlers to get more chances to get out.

Kelvin, Thanks for the vote of confidence mate... I'm no longer H-core these days. In my youth might have been. Possibly just "seasoned". Our weekend in the lakes was a good lark for sure.
(BTW- I thought that pic was my first run...and I did not nail it then )

[johnd]

In California, I encountered considerable prejudice against open boating. I joined Gold Country Paddlers, a club with about 300 people. Right before I left California, I sent out emails to get on a popular Class III run, the South Fork American, but had no takers. Then, on a club organized outing to which I had driven a considerable distance, I couldn't find anyone willing to invite me on a Class III run which was easily within my skill level. It was very frustrating for me, and perhaps if I end up back in California, I will just quit boating. It's not worth the frustration. I don't want to run only Class II runs.

Why do a sport in which people discriminate against you?

[Wiggins]

I have dealt with a fair bit of it in Washington State. I usually kayak and I have had a number of my kayaking buddies tell me they didn't want to boat with me if I am only using one paddle blade. One of them even gave me crap on a permited trip I planned.

For every kayaker who hates seeing me out there, I find one who thinks it is awesome to see a OC on the river. The only kayaker who has seen me swim to date has was in this group.

Keep plugging away at it. You'll find a group of boaters who will let you tag along while you learn the ropes.

Kyle

[TheKrikkitWars]

It's the "rack space" issue why I only C-1 or kayak these days with an otherwise kayak only trip. I can justify bringing the canoe only to go with other canoers and especially if going tandem. I'm not willing to take the canoe if it adds to the shuttle logistics.

As far as the original question, even if you were a kayaker, it can be difficult to break into whitewater cliques as an outsider.

These days it seems the more pressing concern, is if they have enough rack space for a canoe?

This, I actually much prefer to paddle my open canoe these days (the prelude is so much more stable than most kaynoes)... but I can't convince people to take the boat (it's lighter than most creekboats, and I'm happy to let people strap one or two kayaks onto the thwarts to make sure that rack space isn't wasted), but most drivers (i'm still working on a vehicle) simply take one look and decide they can't take it. So i can only paddle when my mate with the van (which will happily accept 25ish creekboats and change if he folds the bed up) comes along.

I definately benefit from being known widely (this is where being an internet gobshite is handy) as a capable paddler in my chosen diciplines, but when I want to progress there are certain paddlers I'll have to demonstrate my increased skill to locally before I can enter the next clique up as it were.

[Eli]

Sadly, there are a lot of close-minded people in this world. Even at my level I still experience this. I rolled through Bozeman, MT hoping to paddle Big Timber Creek and couldn't find anyone to paddle with. After I left, a friend of mine returned and gave his friends *@%* for turning me down, but I have yet to make it back out there.

I agree that it gets easier over time, but you will always experience doubt. I love to rescue kayakers to show that a canoer can get to them faster and easier. It still hurts when you know you can paddle something, but can't find anyone to paddle with. Nowadays, instead of thinking they are simply ignorant, I assume they are afraid.

I attended the Scottish Open Canoe Symposium several years ago and met many canoers that love the sport. I know that the symposium rotates every year between England, Scotland and Wales. I would recommend attending just to meet other canoers and experience the camraderie.

Also, if you load your canoe on it's side, it takes up a lot less rack space. I also load other boats on top of my canoe (unless it is glass or ABS on it's side).

Don't give up! There are cool kayakers out there. Once they know your skills they will even appreciate your ability to jump in and out quickly to scout or help when they pin...