How does Fear affect your paddling?

yarnellboat · Post by **yarnellboat** » Mon Dec 20, 2010 9:36 pm

My guess at the giggling is about the value of waivers. Waivers are only useful if there was no negligence; and if there was negligence, it doesn't matter if there was a waiver. So, whether or not there is a waiver, you're exposure to liability is the same - only if there's an expectation of care (i.e., a formal organization), and only if there's negligence.

Yukon raises a good point for organized trips where there is an expectation of leadership/protocols. Some relative's lawyer can always run through the whole list of standard safety protocols to test whether or not there may have been negligence, blah, blah.

But that's not what this thread was about.

I tend to avoid fear myself. In fact, I chose to paddle canoe and ski telemark so that I could get the adreneline without as much of the consequences.

The fear that scares me is the stuff that comes from "the human factor" - group decisions about water levels etc. As much as we all need to be self sufficient and make or own decisions, all risks affect the group. So, the group needs to cooperate on knowing and managing the risks, and not accept the creation of extra risk.

Maybe individual risk-taking isn't as big deal to the group on warm, pool-and-drop, roadside runs, but here I pretty much consider all risks to be group risks. Actually, I don't see why it would be different anywhere - I don't want to hurt myself physically, but I also really don't want to be in the position where I watch somebody die in front me, that just hurts in a different way, and is a legitimate source of fear itself.

I'm also always nervous on new-to-me runs. Perhaps it's because there aren't a lot of class III+ canoeists around here, so there's not many who know/lead the challenging runs, and there's not really a culture of "follow my line" that kayakers seem to have, and the runs are continuous, cold and can have wood. So, my nerves are more into it on my first-time class III-IV runs, but I don't mind that, because I tend to paddle with a pretty familiar & conservative group. And we're out there for fun. And we need to get back.

Pat.

Yukon · Post by **Yukon** » Mon Dec 20, 2010 9:50 pm

Pat waivers are worth way more than people think they are. They have stood up in court numereous times and have protected people from the very thing they were intended to.

However the waiver needs to be written correctly and adminsitered correctly. Court prescident has shown the magic # to be 3 times a person needs to be presented with a waiver and had a chance to read it. Then they can not claim they did not know the risks. They can also not be under any duress, such as at the takeout or after they have already paid for a trip per se.
Lawyers want people to believe that waivers are not worth the paper they are printed on,as if there is NO waiver their job gets a whole lot easier having a succesful lawsuit. I would much rather have a judge decide on the waiver than to not have a waiver behind me.

It is my business to know how to protect myself since I take out a lot of rich folk.

This is one aspect of fear and how we deal with it paddling. I look after myself first. I dont want the stress of thinking someone may come after me after an accident occurs so I make sure things are in place to help me if they do. It does suck thinking someone may sue me for trying to share the river with them.

Louie · Post by **Louie** » Mon Dec 20, 2010 9:58 pm

Sue? well in my case it would sue a begger catch a lice.

yarnellboat · Post by **yarnellboat** » Mon Dec 20, 2010 9:59 pm

True, waivers are very useful in your position (and for any organized trip), but they are somewhat redundant because they only protect you in case where you've done everthing properly - discussed the risks, evaluated the equipment, etc. - if you foget to do anything that should be part of standard safety procedures (and lawyers can always find ways to argue that you may have), than it would be argued as a matter of negligence, for which the waiver would be of little help.

I'm not suggesting not using waivers for organized trips, especially commercial ones, I'm just saying the more important thing is that you go through all the expected steps appropriately every time - that's what actually protects you - meet or exceed a reasonable person's expectation of the industry standard.

I get your fear on that though, even on unorganized trips I'm often conscious of what fear others might have (or should have) - back to their risks being the groups risks.

P.

Sir Adam · Post by **Sir Adam** » Mon Dec 20, 2010 10:06 pm

Rather than PM, I'll just post this here:

Louie and Gabe, ENOUGH already. You are both welcome to post here, but keep up the jibes back and forth and I'll deactivate BOTH of you. We know you don't get along, so just ignore each other AND not bait one another.

As long as their is no trolling or baiting you are both welcome here.

I may or may not to some editing a bit later (one of the moderators may have already, I haven't had time to go re-read everything again). I didn't see anything unsuitable for general readership, just both of you not following the site rules.

Louie had some very valid points, and I understand, respect, and for the most part agree with how he runs his trips (we ALL need to be responsible for ourselves.)

To help grow the sport we need to do what we can, safely, to move folks along, which includes helping them push their limits in an environment that works for the folks involved.

Back on-topic, I like to boat with folks better than me (plenty of them out there!) such that when I'm someplace new and get nervous they can help reference it to other water we may both have paddled. If I paddle with them enough I'll trust their take on the difficulty and my own skill level. That's how I paddled Fowlersville Falls and parts of the Bottom Moose my first year C1ing. I owe lots to those folks who helped me along, even if one of them used two blades. Unfortunately two of them are no longer with us (trees in both cases.. skiing and on the river).

These days I enjoy the mental challenges of Cquirting and mystery moves along with the finesse they requite a lot of fun... but have some equally "interesting" moments as when I first started.

2opnboat1 · Post by **2opnboat1** » Mon Dec 20, 2010 10:07 pm

Sue??????? WTF

Yukon · Post by **Yukon** » Mon Dec 20, 2010 10:26 pm

Pat my waivers and others have on them they can not sue for negligence. Courts realize people are just people and they can forget things. People waive the right to sue for negligence. Gross negligence is another story.

I am not too worried about things when I am teaching or guiding as I make sure things are done in a proper fasion. However if I am on a fun day trip and there is anyone there because I am then I am seen as the leader, whether or not I want to be.
I would potentially be held to a higher standard as I know better or should know. Anyways I dont get too wrapped up in, I have insurance and if they dont work which I dont count on, then they can take the beat up boats, smelly dry suuits. They can not take everything you have and leave u with nothing. And they can not make u pay for the rest of your life.

A waiver like Louies is better than nothing.

philcanoe · Post by **philcanoe** » Mon Dec 20, 2010 10:43 pm

Yukon wrote:Phil sorry but I dont get it. Spit it out if you are tying to say somethin...

Yukon - guess it was nothing, a mere illusion... as it was responding to something which one of the admin's has since sanitized.

Post by **sbroam** » Mon Dec 20, 2010 11:03 pm

Back on topic - fear.

I've let fear keep me from doing things that I should have done and regretted later that I didn't do.

Fear has kept me alive by keeping from doing things that I had no business doing.

Bumping up against the envelope; staying in that buzzing, adrenaline charged space between those two bounds of fear is what brings me back to whitewater. Each day with a step up and over that "lower bound" but short of the "upper bound" is a good day, a day of growth.

Craig Smerda · Post by **Craig Smerda** » Mon Dec 20, 2010 11:11 pm

philcanoe wrote:
Yukon wrote:Phil sorry but I dont get it. Spit it out if you are tying to say somethin...
Yukon - guess it was nothing, a mere illusion... as it was responding to something which one of the admin's has since sanitized.

[img]http://srv-londonimages-4.londontown.co ... 29long.jpg[/img]

Yukon · Post by **Yukon** » Mon Dec 20, 2010 11:21 pm

huh speak up!!1

Louie · Post by **Louie** » Mon Dec 20, 2010 11:29 pm

You never want to be the best boater in the group , you want to be in the group with the best boaters.

I have never been good but so far I have been dam lucky.

Louie · Post by **Louie** » Mon Dec 20, 2010 11:34 pm

guys guys guys the waiver is a joke. No one needs to sign a darn thing with me, that would be like one bass fisherman havein to have all the other bass fisherman to sign a waiver that if they drive their bass boat in the bank full speed they won't sue the first guy on the water that day.

FullGnarlzOC · Post by **FullGnarlzOC** » Tue Dec 21, 2010 12:09 am

Skills + experience + quality of group / danger = fear level

My point to this whole post is... if you believe your skills are at a certain spot, try not to let fear be the thing that holds you back. Conquering/Managing fear is one of the most important 'skills' a WW paddler can have.

And as I general rule...You don't run the gnar with people that wouldnt jump in and attempt to save ur life when necessary.

kanur · Post by **kanur** » Tue Dec 21, 2010 1:47 am

FullGnarlzOC wrote: And as I general rule...You don't run the gnar with people that wouldnt jump in and attempt to save ur life when necessary.

Now that's a rule I can live with!