Two doctor are chasin a little white ball around a cow field on Long Island ( Cow field, long island?). One doctor shanks the ball and hit other doctor in eye and knock his eye out. One eyed doctor sues other doctor cause other doctor doesn't yell fore. Court says bull crap you play with stick and someone loses an eye don't come cryin to us. Appleals court says the same thing. You knew it was dangerous when you paid your money to play.
OK my question is how does this relate to boatin? Can we take someone boatin and still not be sued if we don't tell them "hey this is class V you could die" Just askin.
Fear, Death, Wavers, and bein sued
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markzak
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Its an issue I've been wrestling with personally recently. After my house fire, which was totally accidental, the homeowner's insurance company came after all of us on the lease for the damages. We were renting. Their argument was that basically, nothing is an accident and we can find fault just about anywhere. We're still (9 months later) trading letters with the insurance company, telling them basically to go take a hike.
I think there are real liability issues almost everywhere in life, and they just can't be truly avoided.
Say for example, Joe rec boater goes on American Whitewater, finds some class II run that he thinks he's ready for. Turns out the run has some lowhead dams not mentioned on AW, Joe gets in trouble, his life insurance company pays out the wifey, and now the Life Insurance company comes after the AW Streamkeeper for mis-representing the river and putting the public in harms way.
Regarding liability of your buddies on a whitewater trip, if you tell someone its just a clean ledge with a pool at the bottom and they end up getting in serious trouble... I'd say its not negligence as long as you're representing the rapid as you believe it to be. The individual paddler is responsible for his actions and making his own decisions. I think its fair to assume that the people you invite to go boating with you need to research the river or ask good questions and come prepared with the proper gear and state of mind.
I think there are real liability issues almost everywhere in life, and they just can't be truly avoided.
Say for example, Joe rec boater goes on American Whitewater, finds some class II run that he thinks he's ready for. Turns out the run has some lowhead dams not mentioned on AW, Joe gets in trouble, his life insurance company pays out the wifey, and now the Life Insurance company comes after the AW Streamkeeper for mis-representing the river and putting the public in harms way.
Regarding liability of your buddies on a whitewater trip, if you tell someone its just a clean ledge with a pool at the bottom and they end up getting in serious trouble... I'd say its not negligence as long as you're representing the rapid as you believe it to be. The individual paddler is responsible for his actions and making his own decisions. I think its fair to assume that the people you invite to go boating with you need to research the river or ask good questions and come prepared with the proper gear and state of mind.
As a club officer, the way I sometimes imagine it is I'm sitting in court facing a dead paddler's family who has been hyped up to believe they can get some money out of me on the basis of "gross negligence" and the jury is a bunch of non-paddlers who don't understand squat about paddling and its inherent dangers and how we paddlers are all conscious of them and take individual responsibility for them. That's why I think waivers are important for club outings and events. The hard thing is even if you have a waiver, who is going to pay the cost of defending you and it in court? That's why some clubs get the ACA insurance. Ours doesn't. Because we don't, I have a rider on my home insurance that costs me $10 a month and provides for up to $1 million in legal fees and judgements against me.
We all know in the U.S. that we live in a lawsuit-crazy society. The good thing is I've heard of no such lawsuits involving paddling. So maybe people do understand the inherent dangers of paddling. I just wouldn't want to bet my life savings on it.
I did get a call once from an attorney representing the boy scouts on a canoeing death. He was trying to find out, based on my paddling experience, if I felt that the boy scouts had been negligent in paddling a certain river at a certain level. I knew the cause of the boy's death was largely a freak accident, but I also knew the river level was not a good one for anyone but really experienced paddlers. Because of that, he didn't use me as a "expert" in the trial. I never did hear the outcome of that one. I just googled it and there doesn't seem to be a settlement yet.
We all know in the U.S. that we live in a lawsuit-crazy society. The good thing is I've heard of no such lawsuits involving paddling. So maybe people do understand the inherent dangers of paddling. I just wouldn't want to bet my life savings on it.
I did get a call once from an attorney representing the boy scouts on a canoeing death. He was trying to find out, based on my paddling experience, if I felt that the boy scouts had been negligent in paddling a certain river at a certain level. I knew the cause of the boy's death was largely a freak accident, but I also knew the river level was not a good one for anyone but really experienced paddlers. Because of that, he didn't use me as a "expert" in the trial. I never did hear the outcome of that one. I just googled it and there doesn't seem to be a settlement yet.
when I reviewed this very pointedly with Charlie Walbridge he let me know that he has never seen or heard tell of a case where a boater sued another boater over a river incident. Not saying it couldn't happen but then again I don't worry about stuff like that too much.
Clubs on the other hand have been sued by members and the ACA took the brunt of it but even this scenario is extremely rare.
Clubs on the other hand have been sued by members and the ACA took the brunt of it but even this scenario is extremely rare.
Over the years, I have been in a couple different paddling clubs.
The most organized (and run with legal council) was a club that held strict rules of order. They ran each an every monthly meeting as business meetings (as opposed to during events or social gatherings) with standard corporate/business concepts. The minutes read, treasurers report, opening for new business, placing a motion in order, seconding, and so on, etc. This was done in order to maintain the 'Corporate Shield' or veil. Not that the corporation (canoe club) could not be sued, but that only the assets of the club would be at risk. It was an attempt to protect the assets of individual members and the club officers, by isolating people from the corporation. Because at the very least, the veil would have to broken before going after any one person or board member (due to a club function). Yes a individual would still be at risk due to negligence, but such is always the case.
Wondering if anyone here knows about such?
The most organized (and run with legal council) was a club that held strict rules of order. They ran each an every monthly meeting as business meetings (as opposed to during events or social gatherings) with standard corporate/business concepts. The minutes read, treasurers report, opening for new business, placing a motion in order, seconding, and so on, etc. This was done in order to maintain the 'Corporate Shield' or veil. Not that the corporation (canoe club) could not be sued, but that only the assets of the club would be at risk. It was an attempt to protect the assets of individual members and the club officers, by isolating people from the corporation. Because at the very least, the veil would have to broken before going after any one person or board member (due to a club function). Yes a individual would still be at risk due to negligence, but such is always the case.
Wondering if anyone here knows about such?
Yeah, phil, when I was writing consent forms for quasi-medical studies, those forms covered the partially unknown risks of experimental procedures, but there was *always* a statement that "no one can sign away the right to sue for negligence."
There's plenty of negligence on club trips--- I used to lead quite a few myself. Most is just negligence like not looking behind to see that someone has not suddenly flipped or become entrapped. Or, not getting over to the right place at the bottom of a drop to help folks. The list can be very long. I think that such negligence is fairly common, and that there is no way to eliminate it consistent with people having a good time on the river. Note: negligence of various sorts is common, usually doesn't result in harm, but is impossible to eliminate.
Now, what good would it do for a club to have everyone sign a waiver, at the put-in, for every trip? That's what my club (Georgia Canoeing Association) did maybe two decades ago. The club claimed that their ACA insurance required such a waiver. But did it accomplish anything? It warned of certain risks, but the waiver did not warn of the various sorts of negligence I described above. The waiver did not remove the right of victims to sue for negligence, because legally it cannot do so. In my view, the use of waivers may actually increase the risk of a trip leader or a club officer being sued. When someone asks you to sign away your right to sue, it implies that you may have a serious right to sue. Think about it.
Anyway, although I had been a very active trip leader, I told the club that if I was "required" to collect waivers, I would not lead trips, and if I was required to sign waivers myself, I would no longer participate in club trips.
It fascinated me how the GCA was fixed on the issue of protecting the insurance company from loss, without improving safety one bit, and with no accomodation to the load imposed on trip leaders and participants. They just played that it was something we had to do.
I made a counter-suggestion that we stop running club trips, but that we only serve as a clearing house, which was consistent with previous reality. The club never had true control of what we did on the river.
I mostly paddle alone now, but I would go with Louie anytime, as long as it isn't over class 3. I regard lawyers and lawsuits and insurance companies as mostly evil, and I won't sign anything that makes it easier for such to function. "First, let's kill all the lawyers."
There's plenty of negligence on club trips--- I used to lead quite a few myself. Most is just negligence like not looking behind to see that someone has not suddenly flipped or become entrapped. Or, not getting over to the right place at the bottom of a drop to help folks. The list can be very long. I think that such negligence is fairly common, and that there is no way to eliminate it consistent with people having a good time on the river. Note: negligence of various sorts is common, usually doesn't result in harm, but is impossible to eliminate.
Now, what good would it do for a club to have everyone sign a waiver, at the put-in, for every trip? That's what my club (Georgia Canoeing Association) did maybe two decades ago. The club claimed that their ACA insurance required such a waiver. But did it accomplish anything? It warned of certain risks, but the waiver did not warn of the various sorts of negligence I described above. The waiver did not remove the right of victims to sue for negligence, because legally it cannot do so. In my view, the use of waivers may actually increase the risk of a trip leader or a club officer being sued. When someone asks you to sign away your right to sue, it implies that you may have a serious right to sue. Think about it.
Anyway, although I had been a very active trip leader, I told the club that if I was "required" to collect waivers, I would not lead trips, and if I was required to sign waivers myself, I would no longer participate in club trips.
It fascinated me how the GCA was fixed on the issue of protecting the insurance company from loss, without improving safety one bit, and with no accomodation to the load imposed on trip leaders and participants. They just played that it was something we had to do.
I made a counter-suggestion that we stop running club trips, but that we only serve as a clearing house, which was consistent with previous reality. The club never had true control of what we did on the river.
I mostly paddle alone now, but I would go with Louie anytime, as long as it isn't over class 3. I regard lawyers and lawsuits and insurance companies as mostly evil, and I won't sign anything that makes it easier for such to function. "First, let's kill all the lawyers."
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Mr.DeadLegs
- CBoats Addict
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- Location: Marietta, Georgia
a bit different
I've been mountain biking more, paddling less lately, and though I've never known anyone...wait a minute, let me rephrase that; though I've never befriended anyone who seems of a litigious nature, realize there idjits like this on the river and in the woods. Ditzy broad hits a freaking permanent gate on water company land, 2 lanes wide, painted bright yellow, while on her mountain bike. screws her neck up, her brain...well, she's a blonde 
Sues and gets 2.9 million dollars. Jury went for the argument that there was no sign on the ground telling her about the gate, and the ditz forgot to look up.
http://www.ctpost.com/opinion/article/B ... 587435.php
http://www.facebook.com/search.php?q=ma ... 0587737245
Figure if the rivers got a rock in it, ya' better let people know
Sues and gets 2.9 million dollars. Jury went for the argument that there was no sign on the ground telling her about the gate, and the ditz forgot to look up.http://www.ctpost.com/opinion/article/B ... 587435.php
http://www.facebook.com/search.php?q=ma ... 0587737245
Figure if the rivers got a rock in it, ya' better let people know
so glad for Krylon, ABS and acetone.Squirt, sail, paddle and pole.
I am jumping through hoops right now, trying to get a whitewater club organized at uni. They rejected the first application on accounts of it being a dangerous activity that they couldn't properly insure. No argument from me. So then I reapplied for a whitewater "appreciation" club. The idea being, we won't participate in anything, we'll just watch films, talk about boatin', and what we do on our own time during the weekends is our business. Still waiting to hear back from the student government about it.
Chris Loomis
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Smurfwarrior
- C Maven
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Tenzing- Become a Paddle America club through the ACA and use the ACA for insurance. Takes the liability from the school for the most part. I was the president of a state whitewater club and I learned you have to really get the paperwork in line to be legit with both the ACA and the IRS (and state IRS types). Keep your club bylaws ammended to be up to date and do what your bylaws require you to do. Should be pretty well "OK" if you do that.... while making sure everyone is a club member or has signed the ACA event waiver and paid their $5 ACA insurance fee. I've used the ACA to organize races on class 4 out here with no problem. Get with me if you need specific tips.
Being a former cop, I've been involved with bloodsuckers oh, I mean lawyers, in regards to lawsuits. Its the 'blood in the water' theory. The lawyer "sharks" will attack everyone but will head for the one with the most blood. Thats why they will name an officer, supervisor, commander, chief, dept, city, state on lawsuits hoping for the big payoff from as high up the ladder they can go. Having more rungs on the ladder above you puts you in a much better position.. (hence the ACA suggestion above)
Now, when I paddle on non club events, I paddle alone. Every time. I just happen to know a couple others who are paddling alone too in very close proximity.
Being a former cop, I've been involved with bloodsuckers oh, I mean lawyers, in regards to lawsuits. Its the 'blood in the water' theory. The lawyer "sharks" will attack everyone but will head for the one with the most blood. Thats why they will name an officer, supervisor, commander, chief, dept, city, state on lawsuits hoping for the big payoff from as high up the ladder they can go. Having more rungs on the ladder above you puts you in a much better position.. (hence the ACA suggestion above)
Now, when I paddle on non club events, I paddle alone. Every time. I just happen to know a couple others who are paddling alone too in very close proximity.
In any situation, a person is expected to behave like a reasonably prudent person (RPP).
This changes based on your experience and training.
The level of care a person trained in first aid differs from that of a trauma doc.
Being paid or not, is not an issue. A paid "leader" and an unpaid "leader" carry the same liability of what would a RPP would do.
This can be applied in a number of ways:
is it prudent to:
carry first aid?
have a cellular phone?
splints for a broken arm?
Check the weather?
One one run, the answer may be "no," yet on another the answer is "of course, it'd be stupid not to."
If, (may God forbid) you end up in court involved in an accident, you'll hear RPP all day long. If you're being sued, the plaintiff (or a attorney) will try to make you look irresponsible.
So you need to be responsible, behave reasonably and follow "community standards" to have the greatest protection.
This changes based on your experience and training.
The level of care a person trained in first aid differs from that of a trauma doc.
Being paid or not, is not an issue. A paid "leader" and an unpaid "leader" carry the same liability of what would a RPP would do.
This can be applied in a number of ways:
is it prudent to:
carry first aid?
have a cellular phone?
splints for a broken arm?
Check the weather?
One one run, the answer may be "no," yet on another the answer is "of course, it'd be stupid not to."
If, (may God forbid) you end up in court involved in an accident, you'll hear RPP all day long. If you're being sued, the plaintiff (or a attorney) will try to make you look irresponsible.
So you need to be responsible, behave reasonably and follow "community standards" to have the greatest protection.