The Re-Birth of Canoeing (plastic canoe era)

Dooleyoc-1 · Post by **Dooleyoc-1** » Wed Jan 05, 2011 9:09 pm

I've had this theory for several years and I think it's been proven to be correct. I think canoe sales and general interest in whitewater canoeing started to drop off back in 1999 when the skeeter came out and dagger followed with quake.

They were awesome boats. The best canoeists switched over to them because who wouldn't want a shorter plastic canoe on a steep creek or a rodeo hole?

The problem was that a lot of Class III canoeists didn't like the way they looked and kayakers and the general public didn't either. I used to always hear people saying, "Why don't you just put a skirt on that thing?" when I would be the only open boater on a class V run in the southeast in my spanish fly circa 2001, 2002 and 2003. (I never liked hearing that)

In 2004 I started paddling a prelude more on the steep runs instead of the fly. It was drier, it looked like a canoe and it was still plastic. People thought it looked cool. Kayakers started saying "wow, I can't believe you're taking a canoe down this run!" (instead of asking me why there was no skirt) The problem was that when most people tried the prelude they didn't like it because it wasn't very stable so they never bought one.

Around this same time sales started to tank on the old boats because they had been out so long that there were tons of used ones on the market (why buy a new ocoee when you could easily get a good used one?)

Enter the L'Edge. A plastic boat that looks like a canoe (and it's stable). Now people (kayakers, raft guides, class III canoeists etc.) see my boat and say "Wow, that canoe looks awesome" and then they jump in it and they actually love it. Several kayakers have asked to borrow my L'Edge to canoe the tellico.

This is good for the sport because more canoes are being sold and overall interest in canoeing is on the rise.

This post is not meant to knock the skeeter, quake, superfly, spanish fly etc... I owned and liked all of those boats. Also, I think they are every bit as "open" as the L'edge. In fact, a spanish fly is a lot wetter on a steep creek than a L'Edge but for some reason kayakers think it's an easier boat to paddle because of the way it looks. I just wanted to share this observation about the general trends in the market over time.

I think BlackFly is already heading down the right path with Jeremy's two new designs and I think if Mohawk will follow suit with a traditional looking PE canoe then in 2011 the canoe renaissance may be in full effect.

People want to buy new designs (innovation drives the sport) but they also want to paddle canoes that look like canoes (partly to get the respect for paddling an open boat). Basically, the market wants to paddle short plastic boats that look like canoes.

tokebelokee · Post by **tokebelokee** » Wed Jan 05, 2011 9:42 pm

Interesting thoughts...I'm comforted to hear someone else thinks the Fly gets a bit wet on steep drops with frothy landings. It also gets a touch sluggish when full.

Plenty of kayakers I know have expressed interest in open boating, but they still view it as too perilous, too much hassle dumping, etc. After last weekend, at least a couple might consider the switch after some tricky pins and trouble exiting. A number of my sportsmen friends have wanted to get into boating, but have not liked their first kayak experiences. I was one of them-I went to a kayak roll session in college and left thoroughly displeased. Hunters and fishermen (among many other folks) are, however, experienced in canoes from hunting and fishing, and would likely find open boating a more natural choice. Good plastic canoes with volume in the ends would definitely give them a good craft to start with. Perhaps with the L'Edge and the upcoming Blackfly boats, we'll see more folks with a pre-existing flatwater canoe background taking up this great sport. I can think of five or six in Blacksburg who are ready right now...

Craig Smerda · Post by **Craig Smerda** » Wed Jan 05, 2011 10:12 pm

we ain't done yet...

Creeker · Post by **Creeker** » Wed Jan 05, 2011 10:26 pm

Dooley you're 100% dead on. There isn't a chance I'll buy a royalex boat ever as a new creeking canoe. Anyone that buys into creeking knows whats gonna happen much sooner than later.

Jeremy a bunch of us are waiting to see your Option's price, performance and WEIGHT. I'd like to see one at ALF or at the Tohickon cause I got to get ready for the Narrows Race

milkman · Post by **milkman** » Wed Jan 05, 2011 10:53 pm

I agree completely with Dooley as well. For many of us, a canoe has to look like a traditional canoe. It's part of the sport's aesthetic. I've never wanted a boat that looks like a Quake or Spanish Fly, nor have I seen many kayakers interested in people paddling those boats. But kayakers are curious about hot-looking performance-oriented open canoes like the Prelude and Zoom. I've also had C1ers try to convince me to try a C1, but they don't get it. I like the big hole in the top of my boat. I like the challenge of trying to keep water from getting into it while I run a difficult drop and I like the challenge of continuing to paddle a boat that is half full of water.

I think the move to PE and other materials that perform better than Royalex is definitely the right direction. The only thing I envied about kayaks and boats like the Spanish Fly was the material they were made of. Since I got my Prelude, I've never looked back. I've also had kayakers get into my Prelude and they've done just fine. Sure they swim a little, but that's good for them. It gets them interested in the challenge and makes them respect open boaters a little bit more.

RodeoClown · Post by **RodeoClown** » Wed Jan 05, 2011 11:29 pm

Creeker wrote: Jeremy a bunch of us are waiting to see your Option's price, performance and WEIGHT.

Me too. Hopefully I'll have a lot of that figured out by the end of the month.

Pierre LaPaddelle · Post by **Pierre LaPaddelle** » Thu Jan 06, 2011 12:32 am

Many good points made here about maintaining the integrity of a sport where canoes-look-like-canoes.

And very encouraging to hear that we may be on the brink of a re-awakening in the sport of WW C-boating, which, admittedly, has tanked in the last buncha years.

But -- another viewpoint, from personal observation:

During the winter, local paddlers in our town run introductory pool sessions to promote WW boating, and to attract new paddlers -- especially from the younger set.

People line up to try kayaks, because they look light and sporty. My old Ocoee sits on the deck and collects dust. Why? To noobies, it looks like a frumpish station wagon, compared to all those little sports cars.

Even when we show that an Ocoee can be rolled as easily as a kayak, we get blank stares. "Look -- your boat's full of water!"

C-1s, or Fly-shaped boats, attract attention because they LOOK sporty like kayaks. It's all about image, not performance, when you are trying to recruit noobs.

True, experienced paddlers (K or C) can better appreciate the performance of a traditional open boat, but -- Hey! We're trying to build our sport by attracting NEW paddlers here! If they think a decked boat, or a Fly boat, is sportier, who am I to argue?

Once we hook them, THEN we can teach them to appreciate the beauty of the traditional shape, and the amazing things it can do on the water.

My 2 cents (CAD, which actually went above par coupla days ago).

Rick

kanur · Post by **kanur** » Thu Jan 06, 2011 12:40 am

Can we get an AHMEN!

I had a Quake, Skeeter, and Spanish Fly and loved the opportunities they opened up. But they ( I'm sorry but someone has to call the baby ugly) are just ugly, they do not look like canoes at all. As soon as I saw a Prelude I knew that would be my next boat.

If you were good enough to learn how to paddle it, it was great. But like Dooley points out most people that got in it were less than impressed. There would be comments about how cool it looked but most of the time when I would let someone try it the question was how do keep this thing upright.

Then came the L'Edge! Now Missouri is not the center of the open boat universe by any stretch and may even be more butt boat biased than most places. But in less than six months there are four on our main local run with one being a class V+++ butt boater who knows the Green very well and I expect he will have his L'Edge there very soon. Of the other short plastic boats I mentioned there numbers could be counted on two fingers during the whole time they were made.

Bring on canoes that look like canoes

Dooley, Mikey can't wait to paddle with you in an open boat.

yarnellboat · Post by **yarnellboat** » Thu Jan 06, 2011 1:14 am

I don't mean to be overly nit-picky, but make that "the re-birth of canoe creeking for not-so-heavy people."

The canoes being put out in PE and getting all the rage are pretty geared to steep creeking in my opinion. Which is great if that works for the rivers you paddle.

It's not quite as great for people who run less gravity-oriented rivers. The short canoes, as awesome as the L'Edge is for stability and heavy guys, are also not as good/fast for heavier people.

So, I'm still waiting for the plastic canoe that will be a re-birth for 220lbs canoeists who run a variety of less-steep class III-IV.

So Craig, how's it coming with the "L'Stretch" version? Somebody said something about 10'4"?

Pat.

Larry Horne · Post by **Larry Horne** » Thu Jan 06, 2011 1:25 am

I agree with dooley about canoe designs but I gotta ask you guys;

Why always this talk about "grow the sport"? I think it's freakin awsome just how it is.
I don't get it. Explain it to me.

Pierre LaPaddelle · Post by **Pierre LaPaddelle** » Thu Jan 06, 2011 2:09 am

Larry Horne wrote:
Why always this talk about "grow the sport"? I think it's freakin awsome just how it is.

Good question, Larry -- no arguments from me about WW c-boating being a freakin' awesome sport (--that's why I do it!)

But, from recent threads on this forum:

* A concern about how few plastic C-1s there are on the market. Drakkar (remember the Wheelboy?) goes out of business. Cascades and Atoms are no longer in print, and they haven't been replaced with newer designs. At last glance, Robson no longer has a dealership in North America -- Finks become scarce.

* A concern that kayak manufacturers are not willing to factory-convert their hulls to C-1, or, worse, that they will not honour warranties for conversions.

* A concern about how the relatively small population of c-boaters won't entice c-boat manufacturers to offer their products continent-wide, and about how difficult it is to access c-boating products in many localities

* a concern about the general scarcity of new c-boat designs/models (thus explaining the excitement about the appearance of L'Edge or the new Blackfly designs). Quick -- name a plastic C-2 playboat. . . !

* the general concern about the way c-boating is disregarded, or disrespected, on or off the river, because the vast majority of paddlers comprises kayakers.

I mentioned (above post) about how we offer local pool-clinics to introduce noobs to WW playboating. The original ad in the brochure read "Kayaking in the Pool" -- no one in the Rec. Department knew, until I hollared, that WW boating comprises other boats than kayaks. They weren't even prepared to let me in, assuming that my Ocoee was an 18 footer.

All these issues speak to the relatively small size of our sport, numbers-wise.

It's for reasons such as these that I am personally committed to raising the profile of our sport, and recruiting new members.

It's like paddling a boat upstream -- if you don't paddle ahead aggressively, you fall back!

Rick

Craig Smerda · Post by **Craig Smerda** » Thu Jan 06, 2011 2:19 am

yarnellboat wrote:I don't mean to be overly nit-picky, but make that "the re-birth of canoe creeking for not-so-heavy people."

The canoes being put out in PE and getting all the rage are pretty geared to steep creeking in my opinion. Which is great if that works for the rivers you paddle.

It's not quite as great for people who run less gravity-oriented rivers. The short canoes, as awesome as the L'Edge is for stability and heavy guys, are also not as good/fast for heavier people.

So, I'm still waiting for the plastic canoe that will be a re-birth for 220lbs canoeists who run a variety of less-steep class III-IV.

So Craig, how's it coming with the "L'Stretch" version? Somebody said something about 10'4"?

Pat.

As for the not so light crowd... I sincerely feel we've offered the best short canoe possible that accomodates a wide range of paddlers in a variety of scenarios... especially when compared to any previous offerings from anyone else out there. I would also disagree that ours is purely geared towards steep creeking as I focused very hard on making the boat as versatile as it could possibly be. Sure... it seems to be working quite well for going down the steep stuff but it's also a lot of fun for a "trad" canoe to surf and play around in and I've enjoyed it on a wide variety of rivers... I hope y'all realize how truly difficult it is to meet all the demands and desires people would like with just one boat and still deliver a something that can do it all fairly well. Speaking personally there's only two boats I've felt are good "do it all" boats for me... the Ocoee was one and the other was the SpanishFly... they are completely different canoes but they are two boats I would feel comfortable doing almost anything in... end of story. I'd also love to have done three sizes of the new boat in the typical S/M/L fashion... but there's only so many open boaters out there and so little money to spend. That being said... does this mean I'm fresh out of idea's and my wish list is empty? Nah-uh... not by a long shot.

Larry Horne wrote:I agree with dooley about canoe designs but I gotta ask you guys;

Why always this talk about "grow the sport"? I think it's freakin awsome just how it is.
I don't get it. Explain it to me.

It's because he, Pat and others want to keep getting new "toys" to play with... heck... I want new "toys" too man. So... tomorrow please go out and buy a new canoe Larry... we need help fueling all of this madness.

Sir Adam · Post by **Sir Adam** » Thu Jan 06, 2011 2:35 am

As cute as Craig's reply seems, he's right - want more new designs? By a L'Edge!

Why? If Esquif can actually make a little money, they are more likely to do another new design... and some other company might be willing to try as well.

Here's something to ponder - why are we always getting new "creek boat" designs? Is that were most of the folks in the sport paddle (I think we can all agree that the answer is "no"). How about this - that's where the perceived "need" is as they are the ones purchasing boats (because they wear through them in part). For those of us with river-runners - when was the last time we "needed" a NEW boat - not picked up a USED one as there were plenty of good boats out there?

I know some of us have chosen to purchase NEW river-runners in the past (Sith, Atom being my two personal examples), but overall we're a cheap lot!

RodeoClown · Post by **RodeoClown** » Thu Jan 06, 2011 2:49 am

I think the reason we see, or perceive that we see "creekboats" is that they also work well as "river runners" or at least some boats work very well at both. Or at least that's the argument I'm going with.

Craig Smerda · Post by **Craig Smerda** » Thu Jan 06, 2011 3:14 am

RodeoClown wrote:I think the reason we see, or perceive that we see "creekboats" is that they also work well as "river runners" or at least some boats work very well at both. Or at least that's the argument I'm going with.

But... what's the difference between a "creek" and a "river"... really?

A while back I asked the fine "folks" over on BoaterTalk what they thought was the most versatile and best overall kayak ever... there was a flurry of responses... but from my perspective no clear winner. People cited playboats, creekboats, river-runners and even a squirt boat??? It was sort've like trying to pick out the most beautiful snowflake you could find... during a blizzard... with sunglasses on... in Bermuda... while scuba-diving... in a pool full of lime jello...

FWIW... I can't wait to try Jeremy's new toy... cuz I like toys.

Edit... wanted to add this...

Sir Adam wrote:Here's something to ponder - why are we always getting new "creek boat" designs? Is that were most of the folks in the sport paddle (I think we can all agree that the answer is "no").

Why do so many people that own "mountain bikes" not actually live anywhere near a "mountain"? How about the guy I see here in town always riding on his "beach cruiser" during the summer?

In relation to open canoes... the only boat I know of that was purposely designed for "creeking" was the Taureau... for now. Then there's kayaking... which requires an avid paddler to own at least seven different boats at all times.