How are the L'edge's holding up?
Moderators: kenneth, sbroam, TheKrikkitWars, Mike W., Sir Adam, KNeal, PAC, adamin
The more I think about the cracking L'edges, the more I think something is seriously wrong here. When I think about all the abuse my kayaking brethren put their boats through and how long those boats last, the more I think there's nothing wrong with canoeists expecting a PE canoe to last three or four years of 50-paddle-day years. After all, we're paying at least $1500 for a boat.
Granted, some kayak companies have put out lemons that have cracked easily. And some of those companies have been honorable in replacing them. But in general, kayaks seem to hold up really well.
Any PE boat though can be run into something, such as like a sharp rock, with enough force to break even the strongest boat. But they should be able to withstand average use on rocky rivers for a number of years. I look at Torre's pictures and I think something is really wrong here. I hope Esquif can find a fix because I really really like Esquif and their boats. In fact, as long as they make the Prelude, I'm a customer. But I'm feeling it now for L'edge owners. I know how much they love their boats. A good paddling friend now has one. I'd hate to see that love shattered with a crack in the first year of the romance. (Someone stop this metaphor.)
Granted, some kayak companies have put out lemons that have cracked easily. And some of those companies have been honorable in replacing them. But in general, kayaks seem to hold up really well.
Any PE boat though can be run into something, such as like a sharp rock, with enough force to break even the strongest boat. But they should be able to withstand average use on rocky rivers for a number of years. I look at Torre's pictures and I think something is really wrong here. I hope Esquif can find a fix because I really really like Esquif and their boats. In fact, as long as they make the Prelude, I'm a customer. But I'm feeling it now for L'edge owners. I know how much they love their boats. A good paddling friend now has one. I'd hate to see that love shattered with a crack in the first year of the romance. (Someone stop this metaphor.)
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Sir Adam
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Lets remember a few things at this point:
GENERAL thought:
1) We're talking about creeking - if you look at open boats vs. kayaks in general I think you are right as to expectations. Add in abuse on rocks (intended or otherwise) and the inherent design of a canoe (you can't use the deck to help make the boat stronger as there isn't one...) and I think they hold up remarkably well overall, even compared to kayaks (Nomad? Mongoose? You fill in the blank of beloved designs that you or someone you know has cracked creeking and welded numerous times) (again, this is a GENERAL statement, not meant to reference the L'Edge other than the type of water it is being used on.)
SPECIFIC thought:
2) More importantly, it is my understanding from posts here that Esquif has been contacted and is working on it, or however you wish to phrase it. Comments for, or against them or any owners really have no place yet until this is resolved one way or another.
Just my .02
GENERAL thought:
1) We're talking about creeking - if you look at open boats vs. kayaks in general I think you are right as to expectations. Add in abuse on rocks (intended or otherwise) and the inherent design of a canoe (you can't use the deck to help make the boat stronger as there isn't one...) and I think they hold up remarkably well overall, even compared to kayaks (Nomad? Mongoose? You fill in the blank of beloved designs that you or someone you know has cracked creeking and welded numerous times) (again, this is a GENERAL statement, not meant to reference the L'Edge other than the type of water it is being used on.)
SPECIFIC thought:
2) More importantly, it is my understanding from posts here that Esquif has been contacted and is working on it, or however you wish to phrase it. Comments for, or against them or any owners really have no place yet until this is resolved one way or another.
Just my .02
Keep the C!
Adam
Adam
Adam,
I'm not knocking Esquif. Far from it. I salute them as an innovative company willing to try new boat designs and materials. They're great. They're wonderful. I don't know where we'd be without them.
That said, there have been a lot of reports of cracked L'edges and people saying they weren't doing anything unusual to cause the crack. I think we're all on a learning curve here--manufacturers making canoes out of PE and their customers out on the rivers using them. I think we all have similar ideas of what average boat life should be like in average usage.
I think the best thing is for all this to come out in the open and for the canoeing community to support Esquif as it works through this issue and for Esquif to support the early adopters who are out paddling the boats. As best we can tell, they're trying.
Transparency is and would be appreciated on all sides. It's harder for a manfacturer though because of our litigious society. I'd hate to see Esquif brought down because they have to give everyone who bought a L'edge a new one or a refund.
Fortunately, it does seem for everyone who complains about a cracked L'edge, there is also someone who says they've had no problem. I'm not sure what the difference is ... we're all out there on water with rocks. I'm also hopeful that there are a lot of quiet L'edge owners who have had no problems and are happy with their boats.
I'm not knocking Esquif. Far from it. I salute them as an innovative company willing to try new boat designs and materials. They're great. They're wonderful. I don't know where we'd be without them.
That said, there have been a lot of reports of cracked L'edges and people saying they weren't doing anything unusual to cause the crack. I think we're all on a learning curve here--manufacturers making canoes out of PE and their customers out on the rivers using them. I think we all have similar ideas of what average boat life should be like in average usage.
I think the best thing is for all this to come out in the open and for the canoeing community to support Esquif as it works through this issue and for Esquif to support the early adopters who are out paddling the boats. As best we can tell, they're trying.
Transparency is and would be appreciated on all sides. It's harder for a manfacturer though because of our litigious society. I'd hate to see Esquif brought down because they have to give everyone who bought a L'edge a new one or a refund.
Fortunately, it does seem for everyone who complains about a cracked L'edge, there is also someone who says they've had no problem. I'm not sure what the difference is ... we're all out there on water with rocks. I'm also hopeful that there are a lot of quiet L'edge owners who have had no problems and are happy with their boats.
I think the problem is created when foam saddles are glued down to the plastic (or ABS for that matter). I have had a Skeeter, Super Fly, Pyranha Prelude and never a crack that I know of. I've recently done another Skeeter and a L'edge for friends and so far so good. I "float" the saddle about 3/16" off the bottom of the boat and secure the saddle by gluing 1 1/4" dia dowels 6" long in either end of the saddle and screwing down into them through the thwarts which are slightly over drilled to allow a tight pull. This allows a small amount of flex throughout the length of the hull. I had an R-84 Rival that cracked right in front of the glued down pedestal where the dog bone was glued down and this year at ALF my 1998 Ocoee cracked right in front of the glued down Team Edge saddle.
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sbroam
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2 thoughts -
1 - Milkman - re : kayaks surviving longer - how often do our open boats impact rocks when the hull isn't completely dry? even a few gallons adds a lot of mass; a swamped open boat can carry whole lot of momentum into a collision with essentially immovable rocks. Many of the dented and cracked kayaks I've seen suffered their damage after the skirt was popped. Hmmm.
2 - Jack - you could be on to something - with Royalex boats I always left some flex between saddle and thwart - I wanted the saddle under the thwart to prevent total collapse (I know somebody who survived an ankle trapped under a thwart), but not enough to cause that wear patch on the botton the boat that matched the saddle (where it wouldn't flex). I've never really applied that thinking to a PE canoe - but then again, I've only had the one (an SF) and the outfitting (saddle bridging two thwarts + bulkheads) is tight as a tick between thwarts and hull. Hmmm.
1 - Milkman - re : kayaks surviving longer - how often do our open boats impact rocks when the hull isn't completely dry? even a few gallons adds a lot of mass; a swamped open boat can carry whole lot of momentum into a collision with essentially immovable rocks. Many of the dented and cracked kayaks I've seen suffered their damage after the skirt was popped. Hmmm.
2 - Jack - you could be on to something - with Royalex boats I always left some flex between saddle and thwart - I wanted the saddle under the thwart to prevent total collapse (I know somebody who survived an ankle trapped under a thwart), but not enough to cause that wear patch on the botton the boat that matched the saddle (where it wouldn't flex). I've never really applied that thinking to a PE canoe - but then again, I've only had the one (an SF) and the outfitting (saddle bridging two thwarts + bulkheads) is tight as a tick between thwarts and hull. Hmmm.
C-Boats Moderator
http://picasaweb.google.com/scott.broam/CanoeOutfitting
http://picasaweb.google.com/scott.broam/CanoeOutfitting
Hmmm, I thought those L'edges were supposed to run pretty dry. No more than a teacup of water after a roll ...
I just went out to the garage and checked the seat in my Esquif Prelude. When I purchased it, the seat was glued down to the hull. Over time, it has loosened. It looks like just the part of the seat is still glued down. I can stick my fingers under the front portion of the seat and the first part of the rear section. Only the part behind the backrest remains glued down. Part of the reason for its longevity?
I just went out to the garage and checked the seat in my Esquif Prelude. When I purchased it, the seat was glued down to the hull. Over time, it has loosened. It looks like just the part of the seat is still glued down. I can stick my fingers under the front portion of the seat and the first part of the rear section. Only the part behind the backrest remains glued down. Part of the reason for its longevity?
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markzak
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I cracked my prelude right under the saddle and it was not glued down. The saddle was only held in because it was attached to the bulkhead area. So I don't agree that a loose saddle or some space under the saddle will help keep your hull from cracking.
I also agree with the comment that kayaks get damaged the most when they are swamped and floating through rapids.
I also agree with the comment that kayaks get damaged the most when they are swamped and floating through rapids.
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Yukon
- Yukan Canoe
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Why is everyone forgetting or overlooking the fact that most kayaks have pillars in them that bridge the bottom to the top, creating a rigid structure. the kayaks that dont have pillars have more plastic.
So with the ledge we could add more plastic- which no one would be happy with or
Maybe the boat needs some pillars front and back- this could be done on open version to with a few more thwarts. The pillar could be a truss- does not have to be minicell, it would have to be light. Maybe with pillars we could get away with a bit thinner plastic? which could save a bunch of weight.
Flex is an interesting quality- things either have to flex or be built rigid, from my experience with dog sleds- rigid was always heavier and when you built flex into them - it had to be at the right place. ie the entire runner had to flex, if it was limited to one spot- that is usually where they failed.
We are pushing the limits of canoes, asking a lot out of plastic, want our boats to be affordable, want them to be light enough to care, but be bombproof and when someone puts something on the market we want it to be perfect right away.??? Hmmm whats right with that picture.
Anyone watch Kent Ford history video? In days of yesteryear, boats were lucky to last a week, materials and techniques have changed but so has our expectations.
I am happy that companies like Esquif and Blackfly are taking big chances and producing toys for me to play with. Big Dog Kayaks is stepping up to, BUT no one else. I would think there is not much money to be made making creeeking canoes, if there was we would see a Coleman creeker (they are making SUP's). I could imagine I would be very limited to what I would be paddling if I had to make my own boat.
So lets come up with creative solutions to help solve problems as they arise. Esquif does not have a million dollar engineering program behind them.
So with the ledge we could add more plastic- which no one would be happy with or
Maybe the boat needs some pillars front and back- this could be done on open version to with a few more thwarts. The pillar could be a truss- does not have to be minicell, it would have to be light. Maybe with pillars we could get away with a bit thinner plastic? which could save a bunch of weight.
Flex is an interesting quality- things either have to flex or be built rigid, from my experience with dog sleds- rigid was always heavier and when you built flex into them - it had to be at the right place. ie the entire runner had to flex, if it was limited to one spot- that is usually where they failed.
We are pushing the limits of canoes, asking a lot out of plastic, want our boats to be affordable, want them to be light enough to care, but be bombproof and when someone puts something on the market we want it to be perfect right away.??? Hmmm whats right with that picture.
Anyone watch Kent Ford history video? In days of yesteryear, boats were lucky to last a week, materials and techniques have changed but so has our expectations.
I am happy that companies like Esquif and Blackfly are taking big chances and producing toys for me to play with. Big Dog Kayaks is stepping up to, BUT no one else. I would think there is not much money to be made making creeeking canoes, if there was we would see a Coleman creeker (they are making SUP's). I could imagine I would be very limited to what I would be paddling if I had to make my own boat.
So lets come up with creative solutions to help solve problems as they arise. Esquif does not have a million dollar engineering program behind them.
L'Edge Creeking comment
My L'Edge is holding up well. I am grateful. Based on watching UTube videos of some of the folks who's boat unfortunately broke I know they ran or drug their boats through hard runs prior to the crack. The cracks probably don't happen in a vacuum. If you owned a company there is the dilemma- commutative fun and hard use versus design error.
Glad plastic can be repaired and the L'Edge is so much fun- and that I give my hard earned money to companies/individuals who take risks for us.
Glad plastic can be repaired and the L'Edge is so much fun- and that I give my hard earned money to companies/individuals who take risks for us.
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RodeoClown
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I don't think that it's an engineering or hull support issue- the fact that some people are arguing that the issue is that the saddle should be able to flex away from the hull while others are arguing for full pillars should show that. I don't really buy the theory that less support is better. If you look at kayaks, everything fits together tightly- the seat, the pillars, the various sorts of ribs or spines they put under the seat between the pillars. The less the hull can flex, the less it will fatigue over time. It would theoretically be more subject to damage from sharp objects (but I've hit rebar in my Blackfly, next to and partly under the saddle, and it left a big gouge/dent, but no right crack.) but i think in the long run, the hull will last longer if it's well supported. I've personally broken 5 kayaks (maybe more, but that's all I can think of right now). One was a crack in the cockpit rim where it was too thin, so that doesn't really count. Of the other 4, only 1 broke anywhere near where the hull was supported by pillars, seat, spine, etc, and when I pulled the seat out to weld it, I found out the spine under seat that ties the walls together was broken- so the hull wasn't being properly supported.
Rodeo Clown, then why does the transition area between supported and non supported portions of the hull seem to be the most likely place for hull failure? Coinkydink? I think not. I don't believe analogies to kayak construction apply to open boats. I do think the pilotless boat full of water is more prone to failure than one that has a pilot still on board. Are the cracks found immediatly after occurrence? I didn't discover the crack in my Ocoee until I got home from ALF and it was leaking on my garage floor.