How are the L'edge's holding up?

[Lappie]

So is PE a good material for ww canoes, that are longer wider than a certain size? Is the shape of it make it more prone to breaking, pirana Prelude, had a fairly round bottom to start with, would it make it less prone to craking?

How many Maxim Tommy as broken so far? He seems to run the hardest of runs! Would RX, even not being as good as befor, could it be better than PE for a certain type of hull shape?

It would be realy interesting to figure what is happening. Does Esquif, know what was the problem with the "bad" batch of boat? How come we only here about the l'Èdge braking up? Is the Prelude, and the SF made out of the same plastic and the same specs? how many of these boats did Esquif had to replace or dealed with since there production date?

I don't know if anybody can answer these questions, or is it worth it to be answered?

[Mike W.]

why does the transition area between supported and non supported portions of the hull seem to be the most likely place for hull failure?

That's a stress riser. If you've got the 6th edition of Walbridge's 'Boatbuilder's Manual' it's on page 18. If not, go to a junk yard & look at wrecked cars. Something that is flexible & unsupported will flex when impacted causing damage over repeated cycles. Something that is flexible, then suddenly supported at point x will likely break at or near point x, as it suddenly cannot flex.

This problem can be dealt with via the layup schedule w/ composites. From what very little I know about plastic construction, I don't think there's a whole lot of control as to how much material is in a particular area.

[ice-breaker]

It would be useful if others who have experienced their own problems with cracked L'Edges could also post pictures of the damage. Based on the photo's that Torre posted of his broken L'Edge, it does not appear to me that this is simply damage resulting from hitting a rock. I am no expert at materials engineering (I am an engineer in another field) and thus I can only speculate; however, to me it looks as if there could be some combination of brittle response of the plastic and possibly stress concentrations due to geometry of the outfitting and boat bottom that may have led to this. Situation may also have been impacted by weight of paddlers and boat speed (and thus momentum) when the damage occurred. I am hoping that Esquif is taking a very serious look at this and are willing to address issues for any new boats manufactured as well as those currently in service.

[golder]

back to the welding/repair bit....

You can learn to weld pretty easily. You don't need any equipment really. I've made some welds with 2 butter knives heated on the stove that are bomber. A heat gun, solder iron (with big flat tip), or any heat source will work. .... Just be extra careful not to overheat the boat during the process, you can always lay another weld, but you can't fix it if you melt out a giant hole.

a buddy of mine had the overheating bit happen on his creek boat. everything looked great, was just smoothing it out a bit, and it got too warm and dripped into the boat. no bueno!

any suggestions for fixing that, aside from dont let it happen in the first place?

we've discussed taking the seat out, putting something (metal flashing maybe) outside the hull to hold the shape and trying to work from the inside to melt the plastic back into place. maybe put some mesh (i know that folks are divided on using the mesh) in to help hold everything in place....

the boat has certainly seen its better days--it had a lot of green runs on it before he got it second hand--but we're trying to keep it on the water. it has other welds in it we've done that are holding well, just the one area has been problematic.

we're certainly open to any and all thoughts and suggestions...

[Larry Horne]

It would be useful if others who have experienced their own problems with cracked L'Edges could also post pictures of the damage. Based on the photo's that Torre posted of his broken L'Edge, it does not appear to me that this is simply damage resulting from hitting a rock. I am no expert at materials engineering (I am an engineer in another field) and thus I can only speculate; however, to me it looks as if there could be some combination of brittle response of the plastic and possibly stress concentrations due to geometry of the outfitting and boat bottom that may have led to this. Situation may also have been impacted by weight of paddlers and boat speed (and thus momentum) when the damage occurred. I am hoping that Esquif is taking a very serious look at this and are willing to address issues for any new boats manufactured as well as those currently in service.

gooody! as long as we're speculating now, I'll throw in mine..
I think the boats are too thick (having never seen one and not knowing how thick they are ).
Thin plastic is flexy.. thick plastic will break before thin plastic if you bend them at a sharp radius. There is no way you could make a boat that doesn't flex. Add the stress riser from the outfitting..Bam.

[markzak]

RE: Welding.. if you overheated the boat and it dripped, you've totally ruined that whole area of the boat. Its going to be brittle, thin, etc. My suggestion is to weld a big plastic plate over the whole mess. I would weld it to the outside. If you need a plastic plate, let me know, I have a bunch of old beater boats and tons of scrap plastic.

I also have some really good friends in Splashville that are green regulars and may be able to help out your buddy, let me know.

[Lappie]

where can I find a good welding kit? And How much?

[Creeker]

PE welding

I've put about 12 cracks into my boats over the years and most of those were in one kayak. I just kept taping the inside as I felt the cracks were mostly due to a hull that was too thin. The others I sold off cheap.

Now I'm getting busy with the welding cause I'd like to work it and help others out. I have friends regularly destroying kayaks. I go to some creeks up here and every time I see 2 or 3 broken kayaks by the end of the day as lap after lap is ticked off.

WELDING LINKS
http://www.urethanesupply.com/6055.php


KC welder pro $64 (80 watt)
http://www.urethanesupply.com/kcwelder.php


I spent about a half an hour yesterday talking to the guy that actually did the weld in the second link for the company.

The airless wand welder he said is good enough and is only in the $70 buck range. The airless welder is pictured in the kayak repair. It's slow and its not likely to overheat and melt out thus weaken plastic around a crack. I think that welder should be the go to option for most people. The welder did a good job at alex's during ALF when Jeff broke it out for a couple boats. Jeff cut the 1-ish foot section out of the center of the Warranty ledge to make the Short Ledge AKA SL'edge seen at ALF. It's a capable but SLOW welder. Slow can be better than fast as in TOO FAST can be Too hot. Ya gotta learn to use the tools.

The first link of the 6055 welder is the sweet hot air welder. It lays down plastic MUCH faster than the airless wand welder. I'm getting this one. The next set up is $999 and just not worth the money unless you are earning real bucks with the welder fixing ripped up bottoms of bumpers/ferrings.

KC Airless wand welder pictured is $64
hot air welder gun (2nd link) is $265

the kicker is the $265 welder lays the plastic in but you also need to round out your welding plan with something to smooth out the fast laid in PE plastic. So the Company tech guy suggested both of the above....or at least you get a piece of metal (heavy butter knife etc) and heat the metal object with the hot air welder and then you butter out and smooth that plastic you quickly laid in there.

Of note he admitted to me that despite the fact that he shows on the website (link 2) that he used the airless welder wand he really did all the big work with the hotair welder gun. They just pictured the airless wand welder into the repair. His point was that it was WAY easier with the hot air welder to get the job done for the web pics, but it could have done with the cheaper airless wand welder.

We also discussed how a creekboat fixed with wire mesh/screen can be an issue if you continue to crash down on rocks and you rip the mesh if the weld is not done well or in such a stressed area like under a seat. it can be ugly down the line but most people get enough out of the kayak by then after a mesh screen repair.....he admitted that this technique was better suited to recreational boating vs Creeking class 4-5. he seemed to know his stuff and we were talking about running rapids on the Nanty. He seemed in touch with what we do which was unexpected.

To be fair I think smurf used the wire mesh/screen in piecing together the SL'edge. It does work but I personally like the idea of not complicating possible future repairs with dissimilar materials. If I have to reweld a couple times in an area maybe I'd give it a go with the screen. Totally a Personal choice and if you are a good welder I'm sure you can get lots more life from your canoe or c1.

I hope this rambling helps.

[milkman]

Speaking of "brittle", I watched the two videos on making PE boats that I think it was Craig provided links to. I remember in one of the videos they talked about how important it was to heat the plastic while in the oven evenly and for just the right amount of time. I wonder if the quality control over this part of the process was just a little off when some of the L'edges were made and that's the reason some are cracking at such a young age and others are holding up just fine. It might be that the manufacturing process just needs to be a little more rigorous and not a design fault of the boat at all. (Disclaimer: I'm not an engineer, I just play one in my workshop.)

[Shep]

Obviously getting into major speculation now... Notice that we haven't been hearing reports about SFlys or Preludes cracking, so I am inclined to think that it not a problem with the cooking or the raw material. On the other hand, the thickness of the material could be significantly different between the L'Edge and the others.

Shep

[Smurfwarrior]

You guys crack me up. (insert rollyeyes here). Why isn't anyone talking about Golder's Spanish Fly that sustained an almost identical crack in almost the same exact spot on the hull on the same exact rapid the same exact day and within a few minutes that Torre broke his? Since speculation seems to be the rage these days, I'm betting on freshwater shark bites.

[milkman]

Perhaps no one is talking about the Spanish Fly because no one has brought it up until now. And Shep, I'm just starting small here. First, I'm going to solve the L'edge problem, then I'm going to move on to global warming and world peace. One thing at a time.

[Shep]

First, I'm going to solve the L'edge problem, then I'm going to move on to global warming and world peace. One thing at a time.

Let's see a kayaker do THAT!

[Smurfwarrior]

And.. to address Wayne's post about welding, since my name came up ref my welding projects, here's my take on that.

First, a few facts. I'm not going to go read up and speculate, this is what I have learned by doing. I've never used a hot air welder. I've only used the KC Welder PRO model. I've only welded a handful of boats, although one (SL'Edge) had two halfs welded together to make one boat. It was a hefty five hour weld job.

I like the KC Pro because it feels like I get a really good mix between the plastic on both side of the crack and the filler plastic because I can force them to mix with the tip of the wand. Never had an issue with it cooking the plastic and the Pro model is a higher wattage and gets hotter. Get the pro model.

Ref the use of metal mesh, lets not be drama queens about it. its just a flexible thin layer of metal mesh melted deep into the plastic to help it all stay together when it flexes. Like flexible rebar. When I welded the SL'Edge, I welded the outside, then the inside, then reenforced key spots with the mesh then finished it off with a layer of Gflex and fiberglass in strips along the inside of the boat with a tapered thickness. It supports the weld but still allows the area to flex and doesnt create a stress riser. I've abused the boat after the weld and so did Matthew Thomas on the Tellico.. No problems with the weld, at all...

I'm all for adding a layer of plastic over the weld if it falls on a chine or another high use area. It provided a layer of wear material and strengthens the weld I believe. Worked on a SF I welded at ALF and the guy took a big hit on the weld the next day. No complaints.

Some people scoff at different methods of doing things, this worked for me and I see no reason to change it. Its really not that slow, I just take my time. I also don't get the poochyness where the plastic bows outward when heated like you see in the LL welding video since I am applying pressure the whole time.

YMMV, this is what I do, you do your thing.

[Lappie]

Regarding the broken SP, the question is, as there been as many broken SP and /or Prelude in the last year compare to the L'Èdge?