if you could have another *new* C-boat right now...

[Craig Smerda]

a bit longer--bit narrower--carbon fibre L'edge... so I could've caught Dewey today.

thought I had that rabbit by the tail... but 2ft more of boat paid off in the flats for the old man.

paddled the Atom as well... first time in probably six years or more... and that boat's not bad... on a slalom course... as long as you are driving it hard... hope to get it out on so other "stuff" before the owner demands it's return.

[avlclimber]

I digging the Viper/Ocoee mashup or redesign.

These are classic boats that continue to make for very happy boaters, but at the same time, haven't we learned some things in the past 10-15 years of boat design that could improve on these old stalwarts?

Who wouldn't want a faster, drier, stabler, lighter, more heard-wearing, more surf friendly version of these boats?
(which, of course, still push back and carve like a dream!)

and do it in the original (X) size, and a shorter, snappier size as well.

mmmmmm tasty. (though I also like the tiny tandem idea, y'all...)

[fleckbass]

I digging the Viper/Ocoee mashup or redesign.

These are classic boats that continue to make for very happy boaters, but at the same time, haven't we learned some things in the past 10-15 years of boat design that could improve on these old stalwarts?

Who wouldn't want a faster, drier, stabler, lighter, more heard-wearing, more surf friendly version of these boats?
(which, of course, still push back and carve like a dream!)

and do it in the original (X) size, and a shorter, snappier size as well.

mmmmmm tasty. (though I also like the tiny tandem idea, y'all...)

I'll second that!

[Bruce Farrenkopf]

We need LIGHTER boats. Plastic is tough but HEAVY. Some material engineer needs to come up with a super light, moldable, wear and impact resistant, relatively inexpensive fiber. Then the world will be a better place .

Part of the problem is ... material development has slowed because energy is 'bad' and we are afraid of 'chemicals'. Energy and Chemicals make our world.

Dr. Bio Chemistry

[Craig Smerda]

the trouble is.... big ideas + R&D + tooling + a myriad of other "things" cost real-->$

I have lot's of ideas... just not enough of the latter to bring them to fruition..




anyone have some winning lotto #'s?

[Bruce Farrenkopf]

the trouble is.... big ideas + R&D + tooling + a myriad of other "things" cost real-->$

I have lot's of ideas... just not enough of the latter to bring them to fruition..

Craig,

Try picking your best idea and put together a downscaled model. For example, try that special layup in sheet form, test it for weight, adhesion, abrasion resistance and impact. Beat it with a hammer. If it is promising, tell the world and see if some support comes your way. If you don't worry about who gets credit or the money, something is more likely to happen.

Throw some ideas at us. The whole thing could be alot of fun (and chaotic ). There are alot of smarts in the C1 community, putting all these heads together could reap some rewards.

SYOTR,

Bruce

[RodS]

...after reading the Stinkeye thread

This is an easy one...a composite Ocoee...

Oh, and that new OC2 Kaz keeps teasing us with...

[Longboatin]

had a chance to try out a zephyr up Bellefonte, and i think it is a great hull. So I vote for a zephyr that doesnt oilcan like its made of cardboard!
Oh yeah...anyone got one theyd like to unload cheap...I have some ideas Id love to try to solve that flacid problem.

[mahyongg]

What about an engineered composite material like dyneema, or UHMWPE - Ultra High Molecular Weight Polyethylene as its called.. Given the fact that its used for radomes because its radar penetrable, I figure it would have a good side use as a car material as well. ;D

But no kidding, it's 40% stronger than Kevlar, 60% stronger than carbon or glass, 5 times as strong as polyamid/nylon and fifteen times stronger than steel, all compared by weight. Now we need a matrix.. if you could lay that up with a flexible (and thus cushioning) outer layer epoxy (bucket of G/F can you hear me?) with a non-destructive sandwich material that takes blows because its compressible (air? sponge?) before a harder inner layer with structural reinforcements on the inside, that could be something lightweight and able to take a beating.

Then, there is my all-time favorite, the air boat. Think rubber raft gone techy. Here's how it would work. If you have a sheet of airtight, coated textile that is connected to another sheet of textile with little strings (technically constructed similar to loop pile or real velvet before its cut, just waaay looser) this sandwich (closed at the edges, dooh) will become very stiff with a relatively small amount of air pressure in it. Still, a gas will compress, so catastrophic failure would be unlikely other than from very sharp items where they dont belong (unless we draw out our frind from above again, the UHMWPE .

Now what do we have:
- Lightweight (most of it is air + no thick textiles needed in places where you don't need them)
- Holding shape (textile technology and some cleverly positioned ribs)
- Indestructible (maybe a replacable damage sheet on the underside would be a good idea?)
- pack-up for the hike in (reach places never before possible)
- cut your way out if pinned (in a waterfall, even.. very simple - could even re-fix it for the way out, woah)
- looking good, not your grandads raft this is! Shaped as any cboat, not ridiculous like some "blow up" kayaks we have seen..
- could include flotation for added weight savings

Well, the tech is here, but this would be such a crazy paradigm shift, really.. and hard to achieve at home and compared to the technology needed for this, an oven and aluminum forms suddenly look like childs toys. Maybe we have a chance once 3D-knitting technology is so widespread that you could basically just knit one out, coat it with whatever and blow it up ;D

Now lets take a look at proof of concept examples from the real world. Cam Brensinger is a smart guy from MIT who "invented" (not really, but he solved some hard-to-solve problems in the process) a blow-up tent and funded his company NEMO to bring you more of them.. -> he'd be cool to ask for lightweight beam technology http://www.nemoequipment.com/airsupported_technology

Another part of the tech puzzle is well represented by the "Grace Table" by Phillipe Malouin, which utilises a probably quite standard raft floor material (yeah, its used for raft floors already...)

http://www.philippemalouin.com/grace.html

And to find a textile manufacturer that is capable of actually producing some of the stuff we'd need for that (they already do, albeit not in exactly the same specs, AFAIK) we have to look no further than these here guys:

http://www.contitech.de/pages/produkte/ ... en_en.html

.. well ok. Now for the shape. Any ideas?

[TheKrikkitWars]

theres still plently of miles in composite materials, but it isn't the reinforcement material that holds us back, its the matrix as you can have brittle resins (Phenolic) floppy resins (Urethane) or not quite either resins (Epoxy, Polyester and Vinylester) which aren't quite tough enough to compete with plastic...

I think that Multi-resin layups to give rigidity and exterior toughness could be a part of the future... and new polymer matrix materials... or old ones used in new ways...

Would fibre reinforced PE be lighter than HDPE for similar overall properties?

Would using a metal mesh reinforcement in PE (like when smurf welded the SL'edge and/or like rebar in concrete) give improved stiffness to thinner or softer and floppier PE?

These are all things that can be tried with modifications to available techology that are used and well understood in the industry.

[chriscanoe]

Craig, maybe y'all might consider desigining a surf oC1? Something simalar to a dedicated surf Kayak, so we could have a oc1 that that we could take to the beach with us when we can't go to the river. Might be nice to have that in the quiver.

[mahyongg]

theres still plently of miles in composite materials, but it isn't the reinforcement material that holds us back, its the matrix as you can have brittle resins (Phenolic) floppy resins (Urethane) or not quite either resins (Epoxy, Polyester and Vinylester) which aren't quite tough enough to compete with plastic...

I think that Multi-resin layups to give rigidity and exterior toughness could be a part of the future... and new polymer matrix materials... or old ones used in new ways...

As G/Flex has shown, there is still more to be developed even in the matrix world. We could also think about abrasion resistance which is often an issue in more pliable/softer matrixes, think aluminum powder (which is basically aluminum oxid powder, making it hard as ruby..)

Would fibre reinforced PE be lighter than HDPE for similar overall properties?

- probably, a pull strength reinforcement will always shed some weight. Real lightweight will only be accomplished by sandwiches though.. think royalex..

Would using a metal mesh reinforcement in PE (like when smurf welded the SL'edge and/or like rebar in concrete) give improved stiffness to thinner or softer and floppier PE?

- naa, its good for repairs (conducts heat and melts itself into the PE) but for sturctural, there's better - carbon, dyneema, which is lighter & stronger than metal (and doesnt rust

These are all things that can be tried with modifications to available techology that are used and well understood in the industry.

Thats right. Glueing (resin) technology has come so far.. if anybody would know how much of their mercedes' is glued together they'd be afraid to drive it out of an old disbelief in glue learned from household mishaps. thruth is, one of the first glued constructions is a fokker aeroplane that was built in (I think) '58 and is still flight worthy after logging some decades of air traffic duty.

Then, I have a sample pack of this stuff called cuben fibre here, https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... uben_Fiberoriginally developed for racing sails or space or something its a tough nonwoven textile material thats super-ultra-ripstop and even in the lightest weights (comes down to 12g/m2) cant be ripped apart by hands. Now imagine a canoe made entirely from this.. maybe, if used just on the outside of something similar to royalex, this would be it. The return of foam core to the creeks ;D

There's a whole universe of technologies canoes will never even touch just because the market is too tiny.. unless some of us who are aircraft engineers, scientists or just general tinkerers (which is probably true for most canoers, as far as I know them) start doing it just because they can and want to prove a point. Try it out! What are you waiting for..

[Todhunter]

The answer is Carbon Nanotubes.

[jharris]

I'd like a creekboat that paddles almost as aggressively as the Atom, but has some volume (especially in the front). Having sharp edges takes some getting used to but it's both a lot of fun and can be really helpful when you need them... problem is the Atom just submarines on steeper stuff and gets backendered very easily when punching holes

[kaz]

jharris,
If you have an interest in a composite boat, you may want to check out the AMOEBA from Millbrook Boats.

JKaz