Rescue throw bag?
Moderators: kenneth, sbroam, TheKrikkitWars, Mike W., Sir Adam, KNeal, PAC, adamin
Whether you can easily leave the boat, walk out and wait for the water to drop depends on when and where you paddle.
It just makes sense to only have one bag. Then you re never worried about which one you should bring.
Just because Einar and Yarnell's story didn't end poorly, doesn't discount what they re saying. It's sounded sketchy and it sounded like they were lucky that everything turned out.
I m not sure anyone wants be a martyr over this sort of thing.
It just makes sense to only have one bag. Then you re never worried about which one you should bring.
Just because Einar and Yarnell's story didn't end poorly, doesn't discount what they re saying. It's sounded sketchy and it sounded like they were lucky that everything turned out.
I m not sure anyone wants be a martyr over this sort of thing.
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Ropes
The 1/4 poly worked. The small tree was pivoted off of it's blocking rock but it required 3 Z's to gain the advantaged needed. That alone speaks to the forces on the poly. The log pendulumed on the rope into the 3' shallows with the victims leg still trapped in the fork and Pat swimming alongside holding his head above water. At that point the shore party waded in and expanded the fork freeing the leg.
This was a fairly unique experience, it's difficult to predict what you are going to be presented with. It is possible to paddle a lifetime on river and never have an ankle entrapment or have to rescue someone from one. But it can happen.
Of the three variables: good gear, good training, and previous experience; the last is hardest to come by so I thought I'd share it.
This was a fairly unique experience, it's difficult to predict what you are going to be presented with. It is possible to paddle a lifetime on river and never have an ankle entrapment or have to rescue someone from one. But it can happen.
Of the three variables: good gear, good training, and previous experience; the last is hardest to come by so I thought I'd share it.
Phil, have you seen anywhere on this site where admins/moderators/site rules state a preference toward a specific throwrope? I'm confused about your comment.In a lot of cases it would have better to have brought that old 75-100 feet of 1/4 inch poly... which you left in favor of being CBoats politically correct.
Othewise, the discussion is much needed as many of us evidently used throw ropes during the course of our paddling lifestyles. Personally, I have a Salamander hip bag of 3/8" 50-foot rope that I've used often for kyackers and non-boating swimmers (yes, I interfered with Darwinism
), though I do not recall ever having to use it for canoers/canoeists/canoosters. I've even used a double throw off the same rope to rescue two non-boating swimmers one time--as learned from Les Bechdel 
. To answer the question that cheajack asked, I have not been in a situation where the specific type of rope (spectra vs. poly) made a difference. For the record, what is the anticipated lifespan of a spectra throwrope versus a poly throwrope? Sun exposure, water immersion, repeated tension and material lifespan all affect how long any rope will last. Does anyone know the official lifespan?C-boats Moderator
"Believe me, my young friend, there is nothing-absolutely nothing-half so much worth doing as simply messing about in boats."
"Believe me, my young friend, there is nothing-absolutely nothing-half so much worth doing as simply messing about in boats."
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sbroam
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I really didn't take Phil to mean any CBoats official stance, but the collective tone of comments. I, for one, borrow from the first rule of gun fighting -
1. bring a rope, bring all your friends that have ropes
Any rope is better than no rope - 1/4" poly on your waist is better than 100' of spectra you couldn't afford or left at home because it was too heavy.
1. bring a rope, bring all your friends that have ropes
Any rope is better than no rope - 1/4" poly on your waist is better than 100' of spectra you couldn't afford or left at home because it was too heavy.
C-Boats Moderator
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Bring a rope
sbroam is right. I got going on a hijack on spectra vs poly.
The big jump is from no rope to a rope.
The big jump is from no rope to a rope.
Okay. That makes sense considering the different answer. There is a video floating around (get it? floating around? ) paddling forums showing a female paddler swimming through hydroelectric rock. I watched it and saw where there were a lot of opportunities for a fellow boater to throw a rope to her and pull her away from that potentially fatal spot, but nobody did in spite of all the boaters that were there.
A throw rope is useful. It helps to use it.
) paddling forums showing a female paddler swimming through hydroelectric rock. I watched it and saw where there were a lot of opportunities for a fellow boater to throw a rope to her and pull her away from that potentially fatal spot, but nobody did in spite of all the boaters that were there.A throw rope is useful. It helps to use it.
C-boats Moderator
"Believe me, my young friend, there is nothing-absolutely nothing-half so much worth doing as simply messing about in boats."
"Believe me, my young friend, there is nothing-absolutely nothing-half so much worth doing as simply messing about in boats."
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yarnellboat
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When somebody asks about “rescue rope” and gets responses about ¼” poly, I don’t think it’s a hijack to discuss the differences.
Here’s what a main Canadian retailer say about poly ropes on their website:
"An affordable option recommended for swimmer recovery. For technical rescue scenarios – please see our SpectrX® lines."
Whether length or strength is more important to your group is of course a valid consideration. If you’re a bigger fan of length for the rivers that you run, great, good point. If you think what your group may need on your river is 400ft of butcher's twine, bring that. But it doesn’t change that ¼” poly shouldn’t generally be recommended for technical rescues.
There are reasons that some ropes are certified for rescue and some are not. If you might have to haul a log to save a person (or whatever wierd/bad situation), it's a lot more comfortable to be doing it with equipment that was spec'd for the job!
I thought the rope we were using in the rescue example was 3/8th poly (1800 lbs), not the skinny stuff (800 lbs). I believe ropes may have been linked together.
Either way, it is the stretchiness as much as the strength that makes poly sketchy – spending a lot of time and energy to pull the stretch out of poly rope creates opportunities for uncertainty and failure. I think the slow response due the stretchiness was very unsettling for our group during that rescue, and I took away that it’s a way better idea to use non-stretch rope. (Same thought when practicing a tethered swimmer rescue – if I’m clipped to rope and being yanked back after grabbing someone, I want immediate feedback, not limbo while the rope stretches.)
Though our rope did not fail, it was not fun to be worried about that, it was very sketchy, we were very lucky, and as a result we’ve chosen to do things differently now on the rivers that we paddle. I think it was the stretchiness of poly that caused me the most anxiety during the rescue.
I carry a poly throw rope on my hip belt for swimmers, and a 70’ rescue rope in case we need it. Our groups tend to pay attention that everyone is properly equipped. Not having any rope isn't cool.
Pat.
Here’s what a main Canadian retailer say about poly ropes on their website:
"An affordable option recommended for swimmer recovery. For technical rescue scenarios – please see our SpectrX® lines."
Whether length or strength is more important to your group is of course a valid consideration. If you’re a bigger fan of length for the rivers that you run, great, good point. If you think what your group may need on your river is 400ft of butcher's twine, bring that. But it doesn’t change that ¼” poly shouldn’t generally be recommended for technical rescues.
There are reasons that some ropes are certified for rescue and some are not. If you might have to haul a log to save a person (or whatever wierd/bad situation), it's a lot more comfortable to be doing it with equipment that was spec'd for the job!
I thought the rope we were using in the rescue example was 3/8th poly (1800 lbs), not the skinny stuff (800 lbs). I believe ropes may have been linked together.
Either way, it is the stretchiness as much as the strength that makes poly sketchy – spending a lot of time and energy to pull the stretch out of poly rope creates opportunities for uncertainty and failure. I think the slow response due the stretchiness was very unsettling for our group during that rescue, and I took away that it’s a way better idea to use non-stretch rope. (Same thought when practicing a tethered swimmer rescue – if I’m clipped to rope and being yanked back after grabbing someone, I want immediate feedback, not limbo while the rope stretches.)
Though our rope did not fail, it was not fun to be worried about that, it was very sketchy, we were very lucky, and as a result we’ve chosen to do things differently now on the rivers that we paddle. I think it was the stretchiness of poly that caused me the most anxiety during the rescue.
I carry a poly throw rope on my hip belt for swimmers, and a 70’ rescue rope in case we need it. Our groups tend to pay attention that everyone is properly equipped. Not having any rope isn't cool.
Pat.
Last edited by yarnellboat on Thu Oct 06, 2011 7:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Yes - the collective tone of this one thread (up to that point). I whole heartedly advocate using a good quality rope. And only caution against buying short ropes for rescue work. As it's surprising how much rope might be used reaching a adequate anchor, and even the most basic z-drag consumes more than most people may realize. This is often compounded because just any anchor will not do, because it usually has to be in the proper direction of pull.sbroam wrote:I really didn't take Phil to mean any CBoats official stance, but the collective tone of comments. . .
And as posted earlier - If the boat/boater in need is one of three.... now you maybe down to two ropes... and the remaining guy may be several minutes away, if for instance he was first through. So tying two ropes together may not be as quick-n-easy as it sounds.
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yarnellboat
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OK, I'll bite, what's the deal with that? I just assumed that Dyneema was simply a differnet brand name for rope similar to Spectra/Spectrx?
Now that I look, I see the strength of 3/8ths Spectrx is as 4750 lbs and Dyneema 2500 lbs.
Whatever, all I know is that Dyneema is stronger than poly, approved for rescue, and most importantly, not stretchy! My Level 6 rescue rope is Dyneema too.
Pat.
Now that I look, I see the strength of 3/8ths Spectrx is as 4750 lbs and Dyneema 2500 lbs.
Whatever, all I know is that Dyneema is stronger than poly, approved for rescue, and most importantly, not stretchy! My Level 6 rescue rope is Dyneema too.
Pat.
KNeal wrote:Oh no you did NOT just throw that into the discussion!eddyhops wrote:1/4" Dyneema
Wanna really stir things up? ---
http://www.nrsweb.com/shop/product.asp?pfid=1850
Dyneema core sheathed in polypro, It's downright sacri L'edge!
JD
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the great gonzo
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Spectra and Dyneema are the same. Ultra-high-molecular-weight polyethylene (UHMWPE). Spectra is made by Honeywell, Dyneema by DSM.
As far as I know the protective sheath in almost all high-strength kernmantle ropes is made of polypro.
Sorry Eddyhops, not much stirring here !
TGG!
As far as I know the protective sheath in almost all high-strength kernmantle ropes is made of polypro.
Sorry Eddyhops, not much stirring here
!TGG!
Everyone must believe in something. I believe I'll go canoeing - Henry David Thoreau
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Paddle Power
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...back to suggestions regarding rescue throw bags:
I like to have a throw bag handy, as in, with me at all times, with or away from my boat. I opted for a rescue belt. It works well.
Reading this thread also provided an unique idea, or at least somewhat unique. You don't see many throw bags attached to PFD. One example mentioned was the Astral product.
Quoting from their site,
46 feet of 1/4'' Throw Rope that is packed into a compact and flat pouch, which fits into or behind the front pocket of many of our lifevests. This rope is accessible at all times (even if your boat happens to be downstream).
Working load:
Poly - 550 lbs
Spectra - 1800 lbs
see
http://www.astralbuoyancy.com/2011/products/Spectra.php
I like to have a throw bag handy, as in, with me at all times, with or away from my boat. I opted for a rescue belt. It works well.
Reading this thread also provided an unique idea, or at least somewhat unique. You don't see many throw bags attached to PFD. One example mentioned was the Astral product.
Quoting from their site,
46 feet of 1/4'' Throw Rope that is packed into a compact and flat pouch, which fits into or behind the front pocket of many of our lifevests. This rope is accessible at all times (even if your boat happens to be downstream).
Working load:
Poly - 550 lbs
Spectra - 1800 lbs
see
http://www.astralbuoyancy.com/2011/products/Spectra.php
Brian
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