Stuck in an offside carve

[yarnellboat]

I get in-water recovery for helping control/maintain a carve going to the inside of the stroke - adding some draw, like figure-8s and such. But I don't see it on the offside adding pry-stroke pressure to overpower a skidding carve. Maybe I should try it a bit, and I don't think it's quite the same as FullG's x-j, but just the same, it sounds pretty low on the list, or at least unlikely to work for me.

Pat.

[Cheeks]

For me it's less about correction as it is keeping the blade in the water at all times when I'm on my offside, and more unstable/vulnerable. But I don't know, I kinda just hack at it until I go straight and then when I hit rapids I grab my gunwales and watch to see what happens.

[jakke]

In water recovery is great to control the amount of turn and eventually narrow it up. But carving is about the stern skidding out and different waves at the bow.
So as far as I see it, you have 2 options:
- slow down so you can overpower the unwanted bow wave (at higher speeds, the wave is too big to overpower)
- stop the stern from skidding out ( cross stern draw or stern pry), works at all speeds, even though the stern pry is probably the most reliable 1 stroke solution.

[philcanoe]

Thanks - for ending that cross-jay talk before it got started. For some reason it seems to go there, every time a offside underwater recovery is mentioned.


What I don't get is all this stern skidding out? For if you're doing a carve the boat is traveling on edge. So wouldn't this be something else, and simply just a turn gone bad?

[Trex]

Ok, Been out 3 times since this topic was started and I finally get it. Paying attention to edge control and boat position with small early corrections definitely beats trying to break out once you loose control . Ending the last power stroke with a stern sweep while changing edges has made my edge transition smoother and with less loss of momentum. It's not happening perfectly every time but now that I know what it feels like more practice and reps will get it done. Processing all this information has also helped me see subtle moves other paddlers use in posted videos that I have previously missed.

These suggestions have helped immensely but keep the thread going if more ideas are out there. I think a lot of people are benefiting by listening to more experienced paddlers break down how they do things. Thanks to everyone and also to cboats.net for giving us a place to bounce these ideas around.

[avlclimber]

Two thoughts that have not been mentioned:

1) Just because you are paddling on your offside doesn't mean you have to lean to your offside. This may not be applicable/helpful in all situations, but a beginner I'm mentoring pointed out this limitation in their cross-stroke. There may be many circumstances when the ability to lean the boat independent of what side you are paddling on may help. I can see this fighting a skid while you still need power from a certain side. Something to practice, anyway.

2) Open boater's Motto: let the water do the work. This thread came to mind as I was bouncing down a cold crick this afternoon. I noticed the very beginnings of snapping into a carve I did not like, but (as I was on my offside) I chose not to waste my energy cross-sweeping (or whatever.) I let the boat carve a sec, because it headed me toward a current that thrust me back the other way. I could have fought to correct it, but it is way easier to let the water do the correcting.

I assume this thread is talking more about flat(ish)water, but one of the things I like most about canoeing is the need to be in tune with the water. Even in barely perceptible currents, anticipating not only how your boat is about to react but also what the water could do for you will result in a straighter ride and a more zen river experience.

[Larry Horne]

Thanks - for ending that cross-jay talk before it got started. For some reason it seems to go there, every time a offside underwater recovery is mentioned.


What I don't get is all this stern skidding out? For if you're doing a carve the boat is traveling on edge. So wouldn't this be something else, and simply just a turn gone bad?

see! I'm not the only one that didn't really know what the question was.
I thought stuck in an offside carve was just a fancy way of saying "I can't keep my boat going straight".
but after 3 pages of advanced technical jargan ...I have absolutely no clue what ya'll are saying or what OP was asking.

[ian123]

To maximize speed, some like to create turning momentum to one side or the other and then paddle against it (i.e. Create turning momentum to the right and then paddle on the right hand side). You control how curved or straight your path is by how hard/fast your paddle, angle of paddle shaft and how much you tilt the boat (Westwoods 2x4 method). In the end, you get maximum speed without the need for rudder-type corrections (trade off is that you re always travelling in a slight arc). If you create too much turning momentum and you can't paddle hard enough to counteract it, you'll just skid around out of control. This is usually only an issue when paddling an arc towards your offside.

The question was how to prevent this from happening. The answer that most people gave was to make sure that you don't create too much momentum in that direction to begin with (i.e. anticipate, switch sides sooner).

Clear?

[Smurfwarrior]

I weight the opposite knee from the side I'm paddling on mostly. +2 on the 2x4 method... lots of minicorrections with more strokes from both sides... constant steering

[marclamenace]

I think Ian summarized it perfectly. Some other comments were toward other pictured situation (onside carve etc.) and it's where it got lost somehow...

Practicing in the 2X4 concept is key here to use all possible variable to better steer and anticipate the carve before it goes bad. But if ever it does, apart from letting go in a 360 and start from scratch, the options were:

- Strong offside sweep while disengaging the edge (you're still in the 2X4 concept here btw...)
Or you correct it up by:
- Offside stern draw (quicky does it and right back at offside forward business)
- Switch onside and the familiar stern pry or bow draw. (more efficient maybe but longer to pull out and your carve just gone worst while you switched.)

While others would call it impossible/unefficient pretzel move, (thanks krikit for the nomenclature ) I love the offside stern draw, learned it last year and although you don't use it often it is very handy for single bladers. Cause sometimes you just need a quick draw from the bow on that other side. Also useful for setting up a ferry exiting an eddy or other times but here i'm kinda hijacking the thread a little bit maybe?

Anyways, just try it and you'll C!

[philcanoe]

I think Ian summarized it perfectly. Some other comments were toward other pictured situation (onside carve etc.) and it's where it got lost somehow...

Practicing in the 2X4 concept is key here to use all possible variable to better steer and anticipate the carve before it goes bad. But if ever it does, apart from letting go in a 360 and start from scratch, the options were:

- Strong offside sweep while disengaging the edge (you're still in the 2X4 concept here btw...)
Or you correct it up by:
- Offside stern draw (quicky does it and right back at offside forward business)
- Switch onside and the familiar stern pry or bow draw. (more efficient maybe but longer to pull out and your carve just gone worst while you switched.)

While others would call it impossible/unefficient pretzel move, (thanks krikit for the nomenclature ) I love the offside stern draw, learned it last year and although you don't use it often it is very handy for single bladers. Cause sometimes you just need a quick draw from the bow on that other side. Also useful for setting up a ferry exiting an eddy or other times but here i'm kinda hijacking the thread a little bit maybe?

Anyways, just try it and you'll C!

Seems like an awful lot of assumption and way too much do as I say do on a subject that can be resolved in a variety of manner... as illustrated by all the different and highly workable solutions to (yes) an offside problem.

I for one - really welcome seeing all the varied responses even yours - most all of the time.

[marclamenace]

@phil and everyone did anything I mentionned ofend anyone / tell them to STFU with their post? If so I am sorry never meant anything like that.

I thought the thread was confusing to say the least, and that ian123 did a great job at summerizing it up. Like yarnelboat I am also not sure how inwater recovery or straighter shaft or offside bow draw would help; I would think these would just worsen the case of the offside carve here but what do I know.

After Ian rephrasing the initial question and the one better and more popular answer (anticipate, small corrections, 2X4) I thought of trying to do about the same with the stuff to do when the carve really does go bad, but I listed three of them here just because I might be too challenged to find anything else. There are certainly many other options here? In fact I might have been doing that just in hope to find someone posting another good one... Ironically I might just be too much of a poor paddler to realize other valid options were posted up there. I am a week-end warrior not pro boater in any way.

This board is awesome. I paddle with a lot of different helpful boaters and it's helping me a lot, but somehow I feel there is a bunch of stuff I also learned by looking at C-videos and reading advices here I wouldn't have catched otherwise before a whole lot more boating.

I have no idea why phil you seem to jump on my threads to throw doo doo oftentimes but whatever. Maybe I'm wrong. I unfortunately have no pride of stuff I throw here nor seeking for any type of a status here anyhow. In fact, I am the one driving threads offtrack many times I am sure just because I am too goofy, underskilled or english-slang challenged to get it right somehow and certainly won't get much shame of it either. For the little I understand it's just part of such a forum by its nature and perhaps the needed attitude for getting the best out of it?

Admins please just delete my post right away (and sorry) if you dont like the color.

[Larry Horne]

I am too goofy, underskilled or english-slang challenged to get it right somehow

Yes, No, and Yes