Hello,
I paddle oc1 now for about 1,5 years and I am having some rolling sessions with our local kayak club here in the Netherlands.... I have learned myself to roll with help from my brother who also is learning to roll in oc1. I have also watched a lot of rolls on youtube and the Bob Foote video. I noticed that my body moves different than on the Foote video, I am making some kind of reversed sweep, but this movement feels more natural to me than the Foote way. I also don't really have a hip snap. In the pool I have a 100 % succes rate. What is the opinion here from the experts? is the way I roll safe for my body or should I change something? also I have about 4 sessions left, are there some other usefull things I could learn in a pool session?
My brother made a video and I have put it on Youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEWdRYlZhr8
Thanks for any suggestions an tips.
Robert
learning to roll
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Robert van den Hoven
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Re: learning to roll
Work on using your hips/abs. Face the bottom of the pool and try not to start the forward sweep until you can see the side of your boat.
My shoulder hurts just watching that!
My shoulder hurts just watching that!
...
Re: learning to roll
Your setup is looking pretty good. As you continue working in the pool, keep tweaking your torso alignment with the boat. I see you lining up more toward the stern of the boat which generates lots of good torque. But, like Ian pointed out, you need to engage your hips and torso more to snap the boat upright. Your rolling starts more toward the stern so try rolling straight out to the side and also starting at the bow. You will find these rolls more successful when you improve using your hips and torso. This topic gets talked about a lot so take time to use our search tab and look for all posts regarding the open canoe roll. Many posts following here will say pretty much the same thing that you can find in the older posts.
Finally, I really like the underwater sound at 52 seconds.
Welcome to our site. 
Finally, I really like the underwater sound at 52 seconds.
Welcome to our site. C-boats Moderator
"Believe me, my young friend, there is nothing-absolutely nothing-half so much worth doing as simply messing about in boats."
"Believe me, my young friend, there is nothing-absolutely nothing-half so much worth doing as simply messing about in boats."
Re: learning to roll
That's typically what a beginner roll looks like. Congratulations on your successful roll! Just keep in mind that this is a starting point. Your roll should improve over time. Things to work on: speed it up. A faster roll limits your exposure. Get a hip snap. This will greatly strengthen your roll. Rolling in water that is aerated, confused, boily etc demands better hip snap. You'll see. Also, Don't let your body be so far toward the stern when you start the sweep. That's a vulnerable position. Swing out to 90 degrees, no more.
Hope this helps.
Again, congrats on your roll!
Hope this helps.
Again, congrats on your roll!
Joe
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marclamenace
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Re: learning to roll
Actually, the mechanic isn't so bad at all, and it works!
But yeah a lot of pressure on the shoulders and in moving water you will end up with a lower success rate and either hurt your shoulder or fail trying to do it stronger.
As Ian said work on pushing toward the bottom of the pool to bring the boat right (not your upper body) in a hip snap, then the pressure on the paddle in the last part (when you bring your body back and kiss the bag, which you do good already) should be minimal since the boat is already up and you push only to maintain it somehow... So the thing is to decompose the push in two; you do it all at once now. There should be setup, push and recover somehow you setup, then push and recover body position all in one move. In the pool ideally the move should be pretty smooth, not using too much strenght at all.
But that's still pretty good for a debut. Another good thing you already figured out is to continue the push when paddle shaft hits the gunnel by keeping the movement pushing the T-grip higher. In a real river situation that often gives you the little extra push you may need.
Also you may like to get a pair of googles to see underwater and work on your setup phase. Right now you over-do it when your body is already in the right position. Not too bad but your roll could be faster. With the googles you can also try to flip offside, let your body float offside then start "shoveling" with the paddle to switch your body to the other side of the boat. You'll get the idea of when and how to do a bigger setup phase when you really need it, and it will prove helpful on the river for sure.
Just my .02 cents!
But yeah a lot of pressure on the shoulders and in moving water you will end up with a lower success rate and either hurt your shoulder or fail trying to do it stronger.
As Ian said work on pushing toward the bottom of the pool to bring the boat right (not your upper body) in a hip snap, then the pressure on the paddle in the last part (when you bring your body back and kiss the bag, which you do good already) should be minimal since the boat is already up and you push only to maintain it somehow... So the thing is to decompose the push in two; you do it all at once now. There should be setup, push and recover somehow you setup, then push and recover body position all in one move. In the pool ideally the move should be pretty smooth, not using too much strenght at all.
But that's still pretty good for a debut. Another good thing you already figured out is to continue the push when paddle shaft hits the gunnel by keeping the movement pushing the T-grip higher. In a real river situation that often gives you the little extra push you may need.
Also you may like to get a pair of googles to see underwater and work on your setup phase. Right now you over-do it when your body is already in the right position. Not too bad but your roll could be faster. With the googles you can also try to flip offside, let your body float offside then start "shoveling" with the paddle to switch your body to the other side of the boat. You'll get the idea of when and how to do a bigger setup phase when you really need it, and it will prove helpful on the river for sure.
Just my .02 cents!
Watch out; that river has rocks on the bottom. 
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Paddle Power
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Re: learning to roll
A great video.
A good hip snap will help roll the boat and lesson the function of the paddle. In the end, your paddle will not be as deep.
Nice canoe!
A good hip snap will help roll the boat and lesson the function of the paddle. In the end, your paddle will not be as deep.
Nice canoe!
Brian
http://www.JohnstonPursuits.ca" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.JohnstonPursuits.ca" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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bushpaddler
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Re: learning to roll
Hi Robert,
Nice to See you here.
A roll like yours makes a good starting point because you can easily practice without the need to leave your boat.
As already said a better Hipsnap is necessary in whitewater. To get it, the Position so far back doesn't work because your hip is blocked a lot. You have much more ability to move it when you are in a less than 90 degree angle to your boat. Try it while sitting in the boat. Tilt the boat to both sides with your torso leaned to the rear and after that try again leaned forward. You will experience a kind of blockade while in the rear position.
The hipsnap for me is more a movement of knees. Pull the onside knee to your onside cheek and push your offside knee away from you. Try this with your hands on the side of the pool, face in the water looking down and both shoulders, through torso rotation, facing the ceiling.
After a few years of ok rolling there's still something to improve for me. I experienced that last weekend in our first pool session this winter.
Good luck and take care of your shoulders
Flo
Nice to See you here.
A roll like yours makes a good starting point because you can easily practice without the need to leave your boat.
As already said a better Hipsnap is necessary in whitewater. To get it, the Position so far back doesn't work because your hip is blocked a lot. You have much more ability to move it when you are in a less than 90 degree angle to your boat. Try it while sitting in the boat. Tilt the boat to both sides with your torso leaned to the rear and after that try again leaned forward. You will experience a kind of blockade while in the rear position.
The hipsnap for me is more a movement of knees. Pull the onside knee to your onside cheek and push your offside knee away from you. Try this with your hands on the side of the pool, face in the water looking down and both shoulders, through torso rotation, facing the ceiling.
After a few years of ok rolling there's still something to improve for me. I experienced that last weekend in our first pool session this winter.
Good luck and take care of your shoulders
Flo
http://www.bushpaddler.de/bilderundtouren.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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jatakasawa
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Re: learning to roll
Good vid. The action is very clear. Everything that's been said is good to go. I just wanted to add that my roll started exactly that same way and it IS a lot of pressure on the shoulders when you sweep forward. It works, but it's not as effective in the heavy stuff. Something else to keep in mind for the combat situations...don't rush it.
1. Tuck fast and throw momentum in the direction of your offside.
2. Make sure you're in your proper setup. (This is the 'patience, Daniel San' aspect.)
3. Engage your paddle and quickly use your hips to right the boat.
4. Keep your head down. Keep your head down. Keep your head down.
Those are my four steps to success.
PS-keep your head down.
1. Tuck fast and throw momentum in the direction of your offside.
2. Make sure you're in your proper setup. (This is the 'patience, Daniel San' aspect.)
3. Engage your paddle and quickly use your hips to right the boat.
4. Keep your head down. Keep your head down. Keep your head down.
Those are my four steps to success.
PS-keep your head down.
Chester the Brace Monkey.
Re: learning to roll
jatakasawa wrote: 4. Keep your head down. Keep your head down. Keep your head down.
Those are my four steps to success.
PS-keep your head down.
^^This^^
Chris Loomis
Re: learning to roll
I find that hip snap phrasing is a trap for the beginner. if you get it.... great. I'd just tell you to setup more 90 than what you are and just roll the same way but try and tweak it a couple ways...
1. with sweeping the blade way forward to the bow....experiment with that thought. it has an effect of you sweeping your torso into the canoe's center of gravity without asking you to do that dirctly.
2.Independently or at the same time try and think about moving your tee grip across the right gunwale in a smooth fashion as possible getting more than 50% across the bow. Actually try this first and then add the sweep of the paddle blade. Try and keep that shaft hand within/about 1 foot from your forehead for shoulder safety.
When my roll has issues in heavy water I revert to more of a shaft hand closer to the forehead if not on it and I think about text book bob foote technique as you see in the video.....play that bob foote video and watch the tee grip about 5 times closely and then watch your video....very different technique going on....you'll improve quickly.
1. with sweeping the blade way forward to the bow....experiment with that thought. it has an effect of you sweeping your torso into the canoe's center of gravity without asking you to do that dirctly.
2.Independently or at the same time try and think about moving your tee grip across the right gunwale in a smooth fashion as possible getting more than 50% across the bow. Actually try this first and then add the sweep of the paddle blade. Try and keep that shaft hand within/about 1 foot from your forehead for shoulder safety.
When my roll has issues in heavy water I revert to more of a shaft hand closer to the forehead if not on it and I think about text book bob foote technique as you see in the video.....play that bob foote video and watch the tee grip about 5 times closely and then watch your video....very different technique going on....you'll improve quickly.
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tokebelokee
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Re: learning to roll
Hello-
I made these videos as roll "troubleshooters," so they don't really start from the top. I'll try to make a video that starts it from the beginning at some point. In any case, as stated, it is vital to keep your torso, shoulders, and head facing the river bottom. Use your strong-side thigh to lift the strong side gunwale towards the surface, while simultaneously "pushing" the offside edge down with your knee. All of the is accomplished by bracing with the paddle, making a good low brace and understanding of how it works a central aspect of rolling. Reach, lift thigh, sweep...
http://vimeo.com/29642417" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://vimeo.com/29704063" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://vimeo.com/30215181" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Hope they might help, or give a new perspective.
I made these videos as roll "troubleshooters," so they don't really start from the top. I'll try to make a video that starts it from the beginning at some point. In any case, as stated, it is vital to keep your torso, shoulders, and head facing the river bottom. Use your strong-side thigh to lift the strong side gunwale towards the surface, while simultaneously "pushing" the offside edge down with your knee. All of the is accomplished by bracing with the paddle, making a good low brace and understanding of how it works a central aspect of rolling. Reach, lift thigh, sweep...
http://vimeo.com/29642417" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://vimeo.com/29704063" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://vimeo.com/30215181" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Hope they might help, or give a new perspective.
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Robert van den Hoven
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Re: learning to roll
Thank you guys for all te great advice!!! It has given me an other view and understanding from where I can start improving my roll.
@tokebelokee, great video's!!!
Thanks!!!
@tokebelokee, great video's!!!
Thanks!!!
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Paddle Power
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Re: learning to roll
Good point about the term hip snap. I like the way tokebelokee put it,
Use your strong-side thigh to lift the strong side gunwale towards the surface, while simultaneously "pushing" the offside edge down with your knee.
Brian
http://www.JohnstonPursuits.ca" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.JohnstonPursuits.ca" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Re: learning to roll
Don't roll in the pool ! What?
I said don't rollin the pool, it destroys self confidence and encourages error.
Great video and some one else is gonna cover the mechanical critique better than me but... too much pool rolling is not good for the soul. Roll in the river. Knock a few off in flatwater for a start. Then start intentionally going into a gr 2 rapid and flip and roll up. Try a few in shallow water, it's a real test; upside down, wet, cold, being beaten up by granite, and having your setup kicked apart.
What's my point, other than pain is fun?
Pool rolling makes paddlers good at pools. Then you take it to the river and the altered head space zone and your roll doesn't work. Now, it ain't your technique, it's the enviroment.
All right, so I learned in the pool too, but I practice on the river. At least I tell everyone that I was just praci5cing.
I said don't rollin the pool, it destroys self confidence and encourages error.
Great video and some one else is gonna cover the mechanical critique better than me but... too much pool rolling is not good for the soul. Roll in the river. Knock a few off in flatwater for a start. Then start intentionally going into a gr 2 rapid and flip and roll up. Try a few in shallow water, it's a real test; upside down, wet, cold, being beaten up by granite, and having your setup kicked apart.
What's my point, other than pain is fun?
Pool rolling makes paddlers good at pools. Then you take it to the river and the altered head space zone and your roll doesn't work. Now, it ain't your technique, it's the enviroment.
All right, so I learned in the pool too, but I practice on the river. At least I tell everyone that I was just praci5cing.
Paddling is easy, organizing shuttles is hard.
Not misplacing all your crap in somebody else's car seems to be even harder
Not misplacing all your crap in somebody else's car seems to be even harder
Re: learning to roll
Ever flip and just roll up automatically? There's something to be said for muscle memory and you can work on that in a pool.
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