Everything I've had in recent memory has had both straps and a bulkhead. The bulkhead bit keeps my knees from wobbling around, and the straps keep my butt on the saddle when inverted. Never been able to use just a bulkhead without footpegs. With footpegs I've never been able to find a happy medium where my knees don't hurt and I'm not falling out.
I think Smurf has the idea for a plastic OC1: use the existing saddle/bulkhead, poke a piece of PVC pipe through the saddle, then tread a loop of webbing with d-rings through the pipe and use that as a bottom strap anchor.
-Bob
straps vs bulkhead
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Silent Bob
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TheKrikkitWars
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Re: straps vs bulkhead
Straps have much better holding power than bulkheads, but in an OC a bulkhead is useful to exclude even more potential water... Both is the way forward.
Joshua Kelly - "More George Smiley than James Bond"
CBoats Moderator - Not necessarily representing the CBoats staff though...(I'll use words like "moderator", "We" and "CBoats" to make it clear when I am)
CBoats Moderator - Not necessarily representing the CBoats staff though...(I'll use words like "moderator", "We" and "CBoats" to make it clear when I am)
Re: straps vs bulkhead
Am I the only one who finds it impossible to get a good fit with a bulkhead when I wear different paddling gear. In the summer I might go just bathing suit and in March/April I have thick layers on under my dry suit to stay warm. I just can't get a good fit in all conditions without straps.
Re: straps vs bulkhead
MY straps come loose. No matter how I adjust them in my detonator they come loose. I need to keep tighitng them up when I am running a river. I dont know if it just the straps I have or if they all do this.
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bushpaddler
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Re: straps vs bulkhead
@dank:
I guess you're talking about the thighstrap-buckle. Some have this problem, just echange the original red belt-material to some slightly thicker or a bit worn ones from an old leashing strap.
Flo
I guess you're talking about the thighstrap-buckle. Some have this problem, just echange the original red belt-material to some slightly thicker or a bit worn ones from an old leashing strap.
Flo
http://www.bushpaddler.de/bilderundtouren.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Re: straps vs bulkhead
Thigh and knee both come loose. Thigh does come loose a lot quicker though. I'll find a wider material and try it.
Re: straps vs bulkhead
I like straps, and I'm ok.
Find a strap material that doesn't stretch. Go to a climbing shop and ask.
Find a strap material that doesn't stretch. Go to a climbing shop and ask.
JKaz......
Re: straps vs bulkhead
I have boats with straps and boats with bulkheads (esquif style). The straps work and they re nice and light.
The bulkhead is more secure... it's especially noticeable with side-to-side movement. I also find that I don't have to push as hard to lock myself in and this makes my ankles happier. I ve added extra to foam to make the bulkhead deeper as Craig has recommended. I ve also made the back of the saddle vertical and added an inch of foam... this helps to keep your butt down and pushes you a little deeper into the thigh hooks.
I usually only wear a single layer of fleece or polypro on the bottom and wear an extra layer on the top if it's really cold and i don't have any issues with fit between summer and winter. That being said, it is fit very snug for winter paddling.
I m always taken back when people claim that they can't get tight in a bulkhead it must just not be set up well. Creeker, spend a little more time working with it. I m sure you'll like it if you can get it set up right. The blackfly bulkheads look very basic. Perhaps you could look at one of Bob's or esquif's saddles to get some ideas to modify it.
In addition to simplicity and water displacement, bulkheads are nice and toastie-warm.
The bulkhead is more secure... it's especially noticeable with side-to-side movement. I also find that I don't have to push as hard to lock myself in and this makes my ankles happier. I ve added extra to foam to make the bulkhead deeper as Craig has recommended. I ve also made the back of the saddle vertical and added an inch of foam... this helps to keep your butt down and pushes you a little deeper into the thigh hooks.
I usually only wear a single layer of fleece or polypro on the bottom and wear an extra layer on the top if it's really cold and i don't have any issues with fit between summer and winter. That being said, it is fit very snug for winter paddling.
I m always taken back when people claim that they can't get tight in a bulkhead it must just not be set up well. Creeker, spend a little more time working with it. I m sure you'll like it if you can get it set up right. The blackfly bulkheads look very basic. Perhaps you could look at one of Bob's or esquif's saddles to get some ideas to modify it.
In addition to simplicity and water displacement, bulkheads are nice and toastie-warm.
...
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boatbuster
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Re: straps vs bulkhead
Perhaps the problem has to do with factory outfitting not properly customized to you. I have been building bulkheads for my boats since before they were ever mass produced, going back to the early 1990s. As a result, each one I have created has been customized to fit me. My bulkhead building took a leap forward when I built one for my first Superfly modeled after Frankie's design. I would have to see how you fit in the boat to advise you specifically, but properly fitted a bulkhead should always yield superior performance to straps
Re: straps vs bulkhead
I've been following this thread with great interest. It seems like the answer is really what you prefer to do with your feet. The paddler is only going to get locked in to a bulkhead alone by pushing with the feet to create compression, and that same compression is the release mechanism. You just stop pushing.
However, some prefer to lie their feet flat and jam them under the pegs. I prefer this myself.
Sure, you can create some compression this way, but it may not be enough to hold you tight into the bulkhead. Also, if you do get tight enough like this, when the time comes to release, you've got to try and slide your feet out from under the pegs under compression to release, which can be even more nerve racking if your feet have fallen asleep. There is no quick release on a bulkhead! Self inflicted entrapment, EEK!
I think paddlers who prefer to use their feet this way are ultimately better suited to knee/thigh straps with a quick release, so the straps can help create some of the compression of paddler to boat, and the release can happen without the paddler having to do anything extra with their feet. They just pull the quick release. However, as has been said earlier, by using a shallow bulkhead (coming less than 1/3 up the thigh from the knee) as a solid replacement for the knee strap in the strap system, and adding thigh straps or a lap belt to the setup, the flat footed paddler can still get tight in the boat and get out on demand.
I guess the test to this is to ask Wayne (creeker, the OP) how he uses his feet in the boat. My money's on "under the pegs".
As with everything, it all boils down to preference. However, if more people are aware of how certain choices and preferences, like foot positioning, will affect the type of outfitting they will be most happy with, they can make better informed choices on how to set up their boats initially, and boat makers will understand they need options for paddlers who prefer those styles.
However, some prefer to lie their feet flat and jam them under the pegs. I prefer this myself.
Sure, you can create some compression this way, but it may not be enough to hold you tight into the bulkhead. Also, if you do get tight enough like this, when the time comes to release, you've got to try and slide your feet out from under the pegs under compression to release, which can be even more nerve racking if your feet have fallen asleep. There is no quick release on a bulkhead! Self inflicted entrapment, EEK!
I think paddlers who prefer to use their feet this way are ultimately better suited to knee/thigh straps with a quick release, so the straps can help create some of the compression of paddler to boat, and the release can happen without the paddler having to do anything extra with their feet. They just pull the quick release. However, as has been said earlier, by using a shallow bulkhead (coming less than 1/3 up the thigh from the knee) as a solid replacement for the knee strap in the strap system, and adding thigh straps or a lap belt to the setup, the flat footed paddler can still get tight in the boat and get out on demand.
I guess the test to this is to ask Wayne (creeker, the OP) how he uses his feet in the boat. My money's on "under the pegs".
As with everything, it all boils down to preference. However, if more people are aware of how certain choices and preferences, like foot positioning, will affect the type of outfitting they will be most happy with, they can make better informed choices on how to set up their boats initially, and boat makers will understand they need options for paddlers who prefer those styles.
Last edited by caverdan on Tue Jan 03, 2012 7:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: straps vs bulkhead
I like the idea of bulkheads so I'm not really opposed to them. To me ease of putin isn't a luxury it's more a safety issue for dangerous putins and there are lots of them (achilles heal of straps). What I really like about my Detonator strap systems is that I've never fallen out of it and it never loosens up much in a rapid/beatdown. And while it keeps my butt down It does allow for a bit of lateral butt shifting. This equates into very dynamic momentary movement of a gunnel up towards my armpit. I sort of abuse secondary stability and I scrub off Many offside flips or kicks into just a momentary canoe shuffling under me. Clearly I would go over if I had hip pads in or if i couldn't shuffle the canoe back under my center of mass. I'm mostly on shallow creeks with velocity and this "never" flipping luxury I've had needs to be moved along to the next canoe. The mindset that there is nothing I can't roll up in needs to be reached. BTW - I can just stand right up and the straps will fall off...they seem to be magically placed for me perfectly.
Till I moved to the Option the roll hasn't seemed vulnerable at all I had my first combat roll on class 5 because I was just so stable in the progression. So the strap movement seems to provide more positive game (for staying upright) and not give me other problems (at least that I'm aware of).
Along with tight bulkheads I've heard people talking about hip pads....those things seem like Offside flipping devil's work. I haven't seen the real need yet to hand roll so I'm discounting that aspect of boat control and outfitting.....unless that is the key to learning the bomber Option combat roll with a paddle. I tweaked a shoulder hacking at learning a K1 hand roll years ago and I said why bother.
I've done some tweaking to the stock Option saddle. I really have been trying to not cut the thigh area of the bulkhead. I have decent sized thighs and all I had to do was cut back the seat 90 degrees and I dropped the saddle height down to 7".
I can fit in the option with a lot of effort (when wet) and best after a rapid or two. The angle on the thighs seems optimal though. When I take the option to the pool with just a swimsuit it seems reasonably well fitted. I'm not happy with how my feet hang up getting them out from Under or even worse in front of the options foot pegs. Balls of the feet on the peddles I am dealing with too much pressure to escape fast enough. Balls of the feet on the peddle is not my natural postion. Putting my hand down to wiggle a foot out is not acceptable, neither is taking the time without hand assistance.
I cut a ton of foam out next to my foot pegs 3"-ish inches, so much that I can wear basketball sneakers and just step in and lay my feet down dead footed next to the foot pegs....Yet even still when I put the booties on the pegs or under the pegs I just can't get the feet out fast enough without some significant hang ups. I'm thinking of pulling a load more foam out of the area between my heel and the side hull. Enough for some significant room to "swing", "shake" my heel out and back and forth till the toes flip out more easy. Getting my feet out from under the pegs is not a problem I have at all in the Detonator....but jamming myself into the bulkhead pulling the foot pegs up is an issue getting feet free and clear easy.
As far as bulkhead additions on the paddler side I feel like I shouldn't add any more there as it will start to critically make it harder to get my knees out if the balls of the toes can't swing out easy off the pegs. Right now I can squeeze the knees out. If I went this addition route I'd only add max 1" and more likely only the outside corners if I ever get to a point where my feet feel free to come out on demand.
I'm left with the idea that I'll have to try the Smurf pictured deal of a hybrid upper thigh strap with a bulkhead. I'm sure that will give me the secure feel, but the extra crap to retain me bothers me with it racked back so far to the the thwart. BUT....who knows the roll might crank up to match the bomber Detonator game too... I do feel disconnected to the saddle in the Option and that is gonna be a big issue or in other words a possible big remmedy when tightened up. So Smurf where do I pic up the raw materials for the buckle system. Smurfs-R-Us paddle shop by a big salty lake?
Anthony, thanks bro for the generous offer of the dagger plate but I'm thinking I'll have this covered with one pair of thwart/tube attached straps.
Till I moved to the Option the roll hasn't seemed vulnerable at all I had my first combat roll on class 5 because I was just so stable in the progression. So the strap movement seems to provide more positive game (for staying upright) and not give me other problems (at least that I'm aware of).
Along with tight bulkheads I've heard people talking about hip pads....those things seem like Offside flipping devil's work. I haven't seen the real need yet to hand roll so I'm discounting that aspect of boat control and outfitting.....unless that is the key to learning the bomber Option combat roll with a paddle. I tweaked a shoulder hacking at learning a K1 hand roll years ago and I said why bother.
I've done some tweaking to the stock Option saddle. I really have been trying to not cut the thigh area of the bulkhead. I have decent sized thighs and all I had to do was cut back the seat 90 degrees and I dropped the saddle height down to 7".
I can fit in the option with a lot of effort (when wet) and best after a rapid or two. The angle on the thighs seems optimal though. When I take the option to the pool with just a swimsuit it seems reasonably well fitted. I'm not happy with how my feet hang up getting them out from Under or even worse in front of the options foot pegs. Balls of the feet on the peddles I am dealing with too much pressure to escape fast enough. Balls of the feet on the peddle is not my natural postion. Putting my hand down to wiggle a foot out is not acceptable, neither is taking the time without hand assistance.
I cut a ton of foam out next to my foot pegs 3"-ish inches, so much that I can wear basketball sneakers and just step in and lay my feet down dead footed next to the foot pegs....Yet even still when I put the booties on the pegs or under the pegs I just can't get the feet out fast enough without some significant hang ups. I'm thinking of pulling a load more foam out of the area between my heel and the side hull. Enough for some significant room to "swing", "shake" my heel out and back and forth till the toes flip out more easy. Getting my feet out from under the pegs is not a problem I have at all in the Detonator....but jamming myself into the bulkhead pulling the foot pegs up is an issue getting feet free and clear easy.
As far as bulkhead additions on the paddler side I feel like I shouldn't add any more there as it will start to critically make it harder to get my knees out if the balls of the toes can't swing out easy off the pegs. Right now I can squeeze the knees out. If I went this addition route I'd only add max 1" and more likely only the outside corners if I ever get to a point where my feet feel free to come out on demand.
I'm left with the idea that I'll have to try the Smurf pictured deal of a hybrid upper thigh strap with a bulkhead. I'm sure that will give me the secure feel, but the extra crap to retain me bothers me with it racked back so far to the the thwart. BUT....who knows the roll might crank up to match the bomber Detonator game too... I do feel disconnected to the saddle in the Option and that is gonna be a big issue or in other words a possible big remmedy when tightened up. So Smurf where do I pic up the raw materials for the buckle system. Smurfs-R-Us paddle shop by a big salty lake?
Anthony, thanks bro for the generous offer of the dagger plate but I'm thinking I'll have this covered with one pair of thwart/tube attached straps.
Re: straps vs bulkhead
I could not get a real good fit with the Option saddle/bulkhead without carving away some foam from the knee area,and along the inner thigh area. I can still swim out of it fine, just ask Jeremy, he saw me do it on sunday:) My boats have always had straps, but I feel more secure in the boat with a bulkhead. with my feet on the pegs not under them
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John Coraor
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Re: straps vs bulkhead
Wayne:Creeker wrote: [So Smurf where do I pic up the raw materials for the buckle system. Smurfs-R-Us paddle shop by a big salty lake?
Try http://www.strapworks.com;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; they've got just about anything that you might want. Preferences in type of strap and buckle varies from paddler to paddler, but I believe that 2" nylon straps seem most common to spread the contact area widely across thighs. I use simple side release plastic "ladder" buckles, but I've both seen and heard about other types being preferred by others. (Chime in everybody...)
John
Re: straps vs bulkhead
Well ...John Coraor wrote: (Chime in everybody...)
John
After years of using single straps, and double straps.... of devising hi-lo set-ups... of hook and loop Velcro... of inserting stiffeners to make webbing stand up... of all types of buckles and quick releases.... of pulled free d-rings.... and forming foam cupped knee pads. Of watching people drill through hulls for anchor points... and seeing various lap belt methods... of trying other folks knee boots... and shaking my head at near swami belt configurations of webbing.
... I thought a bulkhead the best thing to happen since the air bag.
